EP 26 Identity, Inner Images, and Animal Symbols with Helena Neubert
Julie: Welcome to Deep Work Out Loud, the thinking that fuels our life, our work, and our leadership. I'm Helena Harris Oliver. This is the podcast where I sit with another professional coach, and we do some work around a single concept, a piece of inspiration, a topic we've seen come up in coaching, and if we're very lucky while we're talking about it, we might demonstrate what it might look and feel like to work with a coach.
But we'll see how this goes. It's all an experiment, . with any luck, you will leave with something that you can use in your life or your work or both. Today, I'm here with Helena Neubert. Helena is a life guide and artist based in Silicon Valley by way of Germany.
With a Master's of Fine Arts and twenty years working in image, including years as a corporate visualization artist, making other people's thinking visible in real time, she now turns that same gift inward, helping entrepreneurs and leaders see themselves clearly. Her work ends in something unusual, a bespoke painting of who a person actually is.[00:01:00]
She calls it The Original, a four-week one-to-one retreat and self-inquiry that draws on fine art, personality frameworks, and meditation, and leaves a person holding an image of their essence rather than their job title. At the heart of her work is a conviction that we know ourselves best not through more analysis, but through inner image.
The right symbol, recognized rather than chosen, can hold what words circle for years and show someone something true about who they are. That question feels newly urgent in the age of AI. Her guiding line, "Meet yourself now or be replicable," frames self-knowledge as a crucial asset aI cannot reproduce, and the thing most high achievers postpone until success quietly stops feeling like enough.
Warm, playful, and unafraid of the big questions, she makes a conversation about identity feel less like therapy and much like finally being seen. Oh, I cannot wait to get into this [00:02:00] conversation.
Hello, Helena.
Helena: Hi, Helena. How are you doing today?
Julie: Very well, thank you. And you?
Helena: I'm, I'm excited
Julie: Yeah, I'm excited to start talking about this.
Um, all of this bio, as I'm reading it, I'm like, "Oh, oh, what's that? What's that? What's that?" So why don't we start with what brought you to this work, and then could you tell us what this work is?
Helena: Absolutely, and thank you for having me. So my-- original interest that I had was in painting. I'm a trained painter and artist, and I did grand scale installations to the point where the paintings were too big, too big to store. Like I would need giant halls, and I kind of transcended the painting into, um, thinking.
So I realized that I'm not actually painting with the color, but I'm painting with my mind first. That's when I started being interested in life visualization and working with, with companies making, uh, their business patterns visible. And while I love this work, you know, I iterate it because I was missing to see the personal [00:03:00] impact I could have, and that's how I actually got to, know, this work, but also weaving into it my own original qualities. more I learned about myself, the better I was able to tailor my work and to create the place I wanted to be in, that I wanted to be present in.
Julie: Can you describe first what visualization is for companies? What does that look like?
Helena: you have a value proposition, for example, uh, you have a product, and it might need some explanation. And because images are more information-dense than text, symbols are also more information-dense than text, you can create shorthands that simplify things, and you have, like, a big, a high-level, a big-picture overview over what it is that you want to sell to people. It's all... Everything is story, whether it is a product or a person, everything is story, and that is what I'm visualizing there to create anchors of memory, and you see everything at once
Julie: Okay, now how are [00:04:00] you, how are you doing this with people?
Helena: So how am I doing this with people? So the, the container that I like to work in is a month, not because it takes a month, but because it gives people the flexibility to explore on their own pace. So I work with very few people, and that allows me to be there when they need me and not be there when they need to take the walk on the beach or in the forest. So, um, first of all, I try to understand where people are coming from. So they come to me usually with big questions about their identity. Who am I now? Where do I want to go? Why does this matter to me? And then we look at their personality, we look at their value, mission, purpose. You know, the things that often in this kind of work are kind of scattered a little bit over different, uh, people who have specialized in it, tie it all together, and it expands through the time and people being able to, "Okay, now I wanna do this.
Now I wanna do this." And I make sure that they get overview, and then they get the painting at the end. Did I answer your question?
Julie: [00:05:00] It, it did. That, um, I mean, you did. It, 'cause it sounds like all the pieces are kind of like the regular coaching journey. You know, we go through the values and the vision and all, all of those things. And then, um, but then you come out with a painting at the end of it. So how are you guiding or how are you guided on what to paint?
Helena: Okay. So there are several aspects to this. There's definitely a coaching aspect because actually coaching as a, as a, a modality totally surprised me. I fell in love with coaching. Before that, I had, you know, an idea of how to consult, the consulting part. But then I realized that creating the space for the other person allows me to not interfere. And there was a magic there that I loved. So it is coaching, but it's also, uh, the painting in the mind that I mentioned before. So for example, if I speak to you and you use a certain metaphor, you can use the metaphor to clarify your thinking, or you can also use the metaphor to explore something that's unresolved [00:06:00] or not clear to you yet.
You can literally walk in your mind through a landscape or an image and explore the symbols and what they mean to you. All of this is like, um, uh, a landscape of meaning we explore, and these are the images that I use. And then there are certain elements that I had to do for myself. So I-- every year, I create, um, a vision for myself, and I check in with my values, and they do change. Because these values that I had, for example, uh, for a long time, I had peace as my value because I hadn't found it yet. then once I did find it, I don't wanna say master, but it kind of integrated. Then something else came in its space. And when... I don't know how you do value work, but I elicit, so that means people have to choose.
It's a little bit uncomfortable. We create a hierarchy from a heterarchy, right? And you have to choose, and there's a little bit of discomfort, but the discomfort tells us what is important in the moment. , And I put these things together. Plus, very crucially, if people are open to it, I like to work with animal symbols animal [00:07:00] symbols are something that is very accessible, and most of us have some type of relationship to animals, whether it's to our own pets or to what a symbol represents. An animal represents their inherent qualities, so to speak, are very strong, and I like to work with that.
Julie: That's so interesting. I- it's fascinating for me 'cause I'm, I'm, I don't... The story I tell myself is that I'm not actually very good with metaphor. Like, I know there are some people who can just, like, like this, just pull out a picture that, "It's like a canoe on a river," like... Uh, and I find that really challenging.
Like, either something comes in and I have the metaphor, or I struggle. So I, I'm, I'm, I'm interested in how, how you're able to do that or how it works
Helena: Okay. So the, the words we use, , I don't really see a difference between an image and a word. So for example, if you
imagine in your head a canoe, you just said a canoe, right? [00:08:00] then you have an image or you write down the word canoe there. It's not really a difference because we assigned a meaning. We know that it is a boat, it is a mode of transportation, it works on water. There are certain things that go with it. So, um, for me it's one and the same. So
Julie: Wait, did I read that you have synesthesia?
Helena: I, yeah, yeah, I do. do have synesthesia.
Julie: Can you talk about that for a second?
Helena: Yeah,
sure
Julie: so do you see... Tell, you t- you say what it is.
Helena: So synesthesia is when, uh, your nervous system is wired a little bit differently. So I'm definitely some kind of neurodivergent. Um, a s- probably a very rainbowy flavor of it because every time I speak, I have an image in my head. so if you say tiger, I see tiger. If you say canoe, I see canoe. But then when you write canoe, what is the difference between writing it, imagining it, and then also looking at it? So we think that the canoe is real if we look at the canoe, but, uh, actually what [00:09:00] we always have is just the idea of the canoe, whether we look at it physically or we look at it written, it's, it's still the actual perception happens inside of us, and that is what I like to work with
Julie: Okay.
Helena: Does that make sense?
Julie: It does. Carry on
Helena: attached to a feeling as well, or a color
Julie: The only thing I have to equate to this is like, this is gonna sound bananas, um, with numbers. My whole life, every number to me has a gender and a story and a relationship
Helena: That's
Julie: the other numbers.
Helena: It's also, it's also synesthesia. Now I'm mispronouncing it. But it's, it's also, you, you might wanna explore that
Julie: Okay, well then I have that too. I could tell you the whole family lineage of prime numbers.
Helena: Oh, that's fun
Julie: okay. Anyway, back to you
Helena: no, but that's n- that's, that's actually one of the things that I liked to explore because these [00:10:00] things are highly individual. The images, the abilities, the nervous system, how it shows up, how the interpretations work, of that. And it's interesting. It's the same way... Have you ever seen, like, a really old museum where all of the paintings are on the wall, like, as, like, almost scattered, like, 20, 50 on one wall?
Julie: Yeah, it's too much
Helena: yes, and then if that's, that's, that's true, and sometimes that is also overwhelming, like the brain is full of thoughts, but then we select the ones that we want to keep on the wall, and that is how my, my work actually is. We select the images you want to have on your inner mental wall, not just the images themselves, it's also the relationships, the interpersonal or inter-subject relationships your, uh, images have.
So, for example, you have-- you do the Meyers-Briggs, and then you have this shorthand that's one, um, one symbol, and then you have your animal symbol, and then you have your skills and your values. And all of that is on, on your inner exhibition wall and [00:11:00] your sense of self. You work through all of it, and then on one layer up above that, you have your anchors that you can tap into.
Every morning, I see my own, original on the back of my screen. I know who I am at all times. You could wake me up at 1:00 AM in the morning, and I can make a decision like that. I always know who I am. what this work does.
Julie: It's like, it's almost like a vision board, but you're not... Except it's not forward-looking, it's inner-looking, and you're not cutting up magazines. It's just so oversimplify it
Helena: It's an interesting way to look at it, but you, you could say that, yeah. It's an inner vision board, and it's actually also a skill. So people don't walk away just with a painting, but they walk away with the skill of being able to see inward
Julie: Okay.
Helena: for example, you just
Julie: Yes
Helena: it. You spoke about your numbers, right? I don't know how often s- something like that would come up in conversation, probably never, ever, sometimes
Julie: Well, I, at one point when my kids were small, I asked all of them, [00:12:00] "What do you think, what do you think the number three is?"
Helena: Interesting
Julie: And, uh, I, God, I can barely remember, but I think they also had thoughts on their gender and relationships, but they were different
Helena: Hmm. Yeah. So everybody has a very individual landscapes, and this is also important to say, the territory is not the map. So I am simplifying and patterning these things for access. mean that it's, uh, a definite descriptor of the person. I only can get as close as, uh, I, I am allowed to by the person themselves, and it's only as accurate as they themselves deem it to be, which is, you know, uh, one of the issues that I, uh, encountered when I started to be a painter, um, back in my 20s. I
would
paint something, it would relate to the people or not. wanted to create art that deeply relates to the people, and it does because it's their [00:13:00] images, not mine. I'm a conduit
Julie: Okay, so how do you get those images?
Helena: Um, so there are different ways. As I said, some people have intuitive access, and some people I am guiding-- actually, most people I am guiding through, um, inner journey, a guided meditation. Some might wanna call it shamanic journeying. Um, it is essentially guided daydreaming, some people have, uh, you know, just want to explore this inner world that they've haven't had the opportunity to go into. Um, I was called to this work by means of being really sick. So I was really sick, and I didn't know why in my late, uh, late teens. Um, and I wondered if there was, like, a spiritual aspect to it. Now I know that the spiritual is the natural, and that is a completely artificial, that is my personal opinion, a completely artificial divide. and it's, it's, it's mysterious, and it's also very normal.
[00:14:00] But
Julie: Wait,
Helena: exploring...
Julie: slow down. Slow down. Slow down.
Helena: Okay.
Julie: What did you, what did you say? The,
Helena: just say? Can you tell my animal by, by virtue of how I express myself? My animal symbol
Julie: No?
Helena: Okay, we'll get there.
Julie: Okay. Um, the, uh, something you said about realizing that the spiritual was an artificial divide. Is that what you said? Okay, say that again, please
Helena: the spiritual and the natural is an artificial divide. Um, but,
Julie: meaning it is all one?
Helena: it is all one
Julie: Okay
Helena: The question itself is the, is the question itself what is the spiritual and what is the natural is creating the division in the middle. So how we look at things defines how we see them. because I had a feeling that something was missing, I was trying to explore, the spiritual side of me. That's how I got into, um, core shamanism as it is- as it was taught [00:15:00] by Michael Harner, who was an American, uh, shamanic practitioner who had greatly inspired me because essentially all you need to do this guided journey is a drum beat.
It's monotone. It changes how we perceive things. Um, it, uh, sets us in an awareness or in a sense of consciousness that's very close to dreaming, but we are awake. And I had done that so much that I could walk through images. So landscapes, ask questions, get answers through the symbols that I'm encountering, and I can do that with other people as well
Julie: Oh, like in a meditative state
Helena: In a meditative state, yes
Julie: This is not foreign to me. This, this part I'm like, "Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, sure."
Helena: Yeah
Julie: So
I wonder if there, ... I wonder if you could walk us through kind of a simple example without doing a full guided meditation here on the podcast
Helena: Yeah, [00:16:00] absolutely. So, um, without the meditative state, we still have access to our own symbolic assignment of meaning, right? So I said earlier, do you know my animal symbol? And what we could do, and what our listeners could do, to pick a conflict that they had with another person and to just think about in this situation, it doesn't have to be, you know, your own true animal symbol. But in this situation, which animal did you resemble most? And what animal did the other person resemble most?
Julie: Oh, okay. So I should think of one.
Helena: If you want to,
yeah, sure
Julie: yeah, yeah. Okay. Um, uh, a s- a specific time or just a person? Yeah
Helena: Whichever conflict comes to your mind that was unresolved or that you have questions about could be useful.
Julie: Okay
Helena: can let go of it by, by virtue of perceiving it.
Julie: Yeah. Okay
Helena: may I add [00:17:00] that the benefit of this is that there are no bad animals. So we are not judging, we're not putting people in a box.
We can just see how they fit or don't
Julie: Okay, interesting. Okay, then I have what in mind
Helena: Cool. You wanna share? What, uh, what animal were you in that conflict situation?
Julie: Oh, um, what animal was I? Let's see. I w- um, the thing that just came to mind was eager beaver.
Helena: Eager beaver??
Julie: E- eager beaver.
Helena: Okay, cool
Julie: yeah, I was an eager beaver
Helena: And the other person?
Julie: Um
Oh, that, uh, hmm, that's hard. Um
Helena: Take your time
Julie: I wanna say muskrat, even though I am not entirely sure. Like, I don't even have a clear picture of what a muskrat is right now [00:18:00] or what their qualities are, but I
Helena: Okay.
Julie: feel like muskrat
Helena: Don't challenge me at all. I have never seen a muskrat, but I'm going to look it up.
Julie: Okay
Helena: oh, okay. All right. Okay
Julie: Okay, now we're gonna have to put a muskrat in the show notes
Helena: fascinating. Okay. All right.
Julie: Okay
Helena: um, this came to you intuitively, this symbol, right?
Julie: Mm-hmm.
Helena: Okay. So how do you think the beaver and the muskrat were interacting in the conflict?
Julie: Oh yeah, that's tricky 'cause I don't know anything about a muskrat. I don't know. Oh, I should have looked it up.
Helena: So muskrats are apparently rats that live in, like, water environments
Julie: Oh, like I'm picturing like that's what I'm picturing. Like kind of plotting, conniving
Helena: Mm-hmm.
Julie: that
Helena: Okay. So rats are socially usually very intelligent, so they would know how to, [00:19:00] how to direct things.
Julie: Yep
Helena: Okay. And that's a quality that the eager beaver didn't like
Julie: Um, no.
Helena: Okay
Julie: I, uh, 'cause if I'm thinking eager beaver, I'm like, "It's so weird to do this," 'cause I'm like, "Well, let me tell the story in a way that makes me look really good and makes the other person look really terrible." Um, but when, when I'm thinking of, like-
Helena: It's just a metaphor. Both of these are in your perception. So if the person frustrated you, of course, maybe the assigned symbol for them isn't the most positive. But at the end
Julie: Yeah
Helena: it's neutral, so
Julie: He said there are no bad animals.
Helena: There are no bad animals
Julie: Um, when I see the beaver,
Helena: Mm-hmm
Julie: think the beaver is just going around doing their job. Like, it's fairly simple. Like, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna build this dam in the way that I know how, and the best way that... And this is just what I'm gonna do. And I see the [00:20:00] muskrat as being kind of, uh, kind of what you said about, um, kind of super intelligent, but kind of plotting, kind of manipulative.
Helena: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Um, a lot of, a lot of this tapping fingertips gesture
Helena: Okay. So, um, and so the, the beaver is, we could probably say the beaver is, and I'm asking you to agree or disagree, intuitive and industrious
Julie: Oh, sure.
Helena: Okay.
Julie: Sure
Helena: you describe them as socially intelligent and potentially plotting or conniving.
Julie: Conniving, yeah.
Helena: Conniving, okay.
Julie: conniving
Helena: So if you look at the beaver and the muskrat, and the b- muskrat is-- Do you wanna look up the muskrat, just by
Julie: Yeah,
Helena: wanna
Julie: I should...
Helena: for a moment because the symbol came from your subconscious,
Julie: I should probably have an idea what I'm talking about[00:21:00]
Helena: Well, I expect the image to speak to you the moment you see it.
Julie: Oh, here, let me click on images.
Yeah. He's totally rubbing his little fingers together like this, but also looks a lot like a beaver
Helena: Oh, no Uh-oh
Julie: Which actually tracks
Helena: For the listeners that don't see Helena right now, she is very surprised.
Julie: I am speechless. I am speechless
Helena: Mm-hmm. What is their element, both of them? main element that they live in
Julie: Well, they both kind of live in the water it looks like.
Helena: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Um, they're [00:22:00] shaped the same. They kind of look the same.
Helena: Mm-hmm.
Julie: They're both kind of chubby and brown.
Helena: Shall we get it on? Okay.
Julie: Um
Oh, but I would say the difference is the mas- the muskrat has a skinny little tail and the beaver does not. Anyway, carry on..
Helena: Mm-hmm. By vi- by virtue of their territory and element, are they close together or far apart?
Julie: Close
Helena: Okay. Does that mean they live in the same territory?
Julie: I think so
Helena: Could that be one of the reasons why they are in conflict?
Julie: Uh, yeah. Yeah, probably
Helena: Yeah. We could explore this deeper, right? We can now think about what is the social structure of beaver families versus, uh, how, how do, uh, muskrats live. Um, my understanding is that beavers are also socially [00:23:00] intelligent And that they built the dams as an environment for their people. And they might, you know, we can go on here.
Julie: I'm kind of stunned actually,
Helena: This will, yeah,
Julie: 'cause I didn't n- 'cause I didn't really know what I was saying when I said those things, and then I pulled up the... Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm all in, Helena. Whatever you're doing, you know what you're doing
Helena: well, in a way, in a way you did know, but maybe it hadn't come to your awareness. So I've, I've had this... And, and thank you for being willing to do this little experiment. I hope the listeners are also, you know, considering exploring some conflicts in this way by just assigning an animal to themselves in a situation and to the other person. always something comes up. We've talked about it in our, uh, conversation earlier, in another conversation, that somebody had a conflict with their boss, and they assigned a lion to themselves and a squirrel to the other. [00:24:00] and the lion was describing, the lioness was describing the conflict she had with the squirrel that was evading her and hiding projects and essentially burying projects where she couldn't find them and, you know, then thinking about how can she bait the squirrel to show up.
And as somebody who has the habit of, uh, hand-feeding my former neighbor's squirrels because they moved away, and their squirrel is now searching for hand-fed nuts at my door, um, we get to understand how these, these animals, uh, interact by virtue of their qualities. And we all know these qualities without having to do a lot of work
Julie: Okay, that's gonna make me laugh for a while.
Helena: Mm-hmm.
Julie: Yeah, that was really good.
Helena: Thank you.
Julie: That was really good
Helena: and it also works the other way around. Sometimes we recognize if we try to do this, we recognize these animal symbols, um, in others very intuitively. So I can, at this point, if I wanted to, I could kind of switch into my other [00:25:00] perception and see, okay, what kind of animal quality am I working with in this person? Um, and a lot of the people that I've spoken to are actually, or that I've done this work with feel that it's a very intimate symbol. So there's so much meaning assigned to it that they not necessarily want to share it. But for me personally, thankfully, I, I don't mind. And it's funny because I went to a wedding a few years ago, and I tried to see if people could assign the right animal to me, and did it-- they did it in, in two tries without me explaining much more about the concept than I did to you now. So it works the other way around as well.
Julie: Mm-hmm
Helena: So do you wanna guess?
Julie: Here's the problem I'm having is I think you made me guess during our prep session.
Helena: Oh, no,
Julie: Did you?
Helena: Possibly.
Julie: So, so I'm trying to re- I'm trying to remember what it is as opposed to like guessing it right now, but I have no idea
Helena: know about me to be true [00:26:00] already?
Julie: I know that you are
Uh, I think you are open. I think you are persistent.
Helena: Mm-hmm.
Julie: I think you are an artist, but also, um, an analytical mind
Helena: Am I fast or slow?
Julie: Fast. I think you have a very perky energy. Um,
Helena: I love it
Julie: how am I, how am I doing?
Helena: You're doing very well
Julie: Um
Helena: Am I colorful or beige?
Julie: You are colorful. There's a, there's a this sort of energy.
Helena: Okay.
Julie: Is it a parrot?
Helena: Mm-hmm. Okay. the first guess of the people at the wedding as well.
Julie: His parrot
Helena: It's, yeah, it's close. Not quite there
Julie: Is it peacock? No.
Helena: [00:27:00] What's really fast and colorful?
Julie: Oh, hummingbird
Helena: There you go. Hello.
Julie: Yes. Yes, that's exactly right. That's exactly right
Helena: And people, people get to that very quickly usually, so within one or two tries if they think about it. And when I
Julie: Yeah
Helena: my animal symbol, it w- it went really far because, um, for example, my vision, I don't have regular, uh, uh, stereo vision. I have monovision because my eyes are a little bit, uh, angled. So for me, I un- always understood depth of space to be ordered by color, which is exactly how hummingbirds, uh, see. So the more I explored the symbol, the crazier the commonalities were for me, and I actually encountered my animal symbols in one of those, um, shamanic journeys where I just put, you know, drum, drum sounds on my headphones when I was, I believe, 19 or so.
Julie: And it was a hummingbird?
Helena: it was a hummingbird, and it has been with me ever since. Yeah.
Julie: Okay. If you had to guess [00:28:00] what mine was, what would it be?
Helena: Ooh. Oh my God. The thing is, you've interviewed me, I haven't interviewed you yet,
so I don't really know that
Julie: ha.
Helena: about you. Um, I, I think, you know, what you told me about yourself with this situational symbol of the beaver is that there's something to you that loves to build. So I would probably look at animals that build. Or if you wanted to go with numbers, if I were to work with you in your own, uh, meaning system, we would find a, a number that represents you best. So I'm not forcing my symbols on people. Whatever works for them, we're, we're using. Um, yeah. Maybe you're a person who needs a number and not an animal
Julie: Oh that is interesting too. It's either a two or a four or some combination of them.
Helena: Okay.
Julie: Um
Helena: Interesting
Julie: [00:29:00] Okay. Where can people find you?
Helena: People can find me on my LinkedIn. Um, my name is Helena Neubert, N-E-U-B-E-R-T, and they would probably see pop up life guide and artist, or they can write me an email at yes@helenaverse.co
🌐 Website: https://www.helenaverse.co
📺 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@helenaverse
📰 Newsletter: https://3sipsoftea.substack.com/
🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helena-neubert/
Julie: To all that in the show notes. I feel we're already at a half an hour. I feel like that time was two seconds long
Helena: That means we had a great time.
Julie: Yeah, that was super fun. Thank you so much for doing this, Helena. It was so nice to meet you
Helena: for having me. It was a pleasure. Thank you, Helena, and thank you for being so brave to, to share your own symbols as well
Julie: Oh, sure. I feel like I didn't reveal anything. Now I'm thinking, was there enough context? But it's none of people's business. I'm gonna tell you, Beaver and Muskrat was exactly right
Helena: N- this is actually, if I may just add that at the
Julie: Yeah
Helena: this is also one way of creating privacy for my clients. They don't need to share that much. I'm not the one who has the insight. [00:30:00] They are the ones who have the insight. we can talk about, you know, really intimate things, even family history, without me getting too close
Julie: This reminds me, I did not ask you what you would leave us with
Helena: What would I leave you with? hopefully with the impulse to explore your sense of self and to create a landscape of meaning, whether it is through writing, symbols, or whatever works for you. But, um, I believe that the sense of self that we have, and the stronger it is, better our life is. We are more aligned. We are less, uh, manipulable. We can focus our attention on ourselves. We are grounded. We make good decisions. So, um, without over- overselling the method, it works for everything.
Julie: Well, I'm all in. I'm a believer. Okay.
Helena: you so
Julie: Thank you so much. Bye.
Julie: This has been Deep Work Out Loud. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. I'd like to thank Helena Neubert for [00:31:00] joining the podcast. If any of this resonates with you, please subscribe and leave a review at all the podcast places, and share this episode with a friend. If you'd like to work with me, you can find me at julieharrisoliver.com.
And let me leave you this invitation. That, that thing she did with me of picking the animals was incredible. Uh, so why don't you think about if you, , if there's an animal that really symbolizes you and resonates with you. Try that on. Report back. Thanks for listening. See you next time