EP28 Why We Resist Change (and How to Take the Tiny Next Step) | Deep Work Out Loud w/ Laurie Luh
Laurie Luh
Julie Harris Oliver: [00:00:00] Welcome to Deep Work Out Loud, the thinking that fuels our life, our work, and our leadership. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. This is the podcast where I sit with another professional coach, and we do some work around a single concept, something we're thinking about, something that we're inspired by, something that we see coming up in our coaching over and over again. if we're really lucky while we're talking about it, we might demonstrate what coaching might look and feel like. But we'll see how this goes. It's all an experiment. And with any luck, you will leave with something that you can apply and use in your work or your life or both. Today, I'm here with Laurie Luh. is an executive coach, speaker, and creator of the Soul Business Newsletter. It is very juicy, and you should subscribe.
She spent her career at the intersection of leadership, strategy, and human potential, helping founders, CEOs, and senior executives navigate complex transitions, organizational growth, and the question of what comes next. Laurie was head of people and operations at Participant Media, the 21-time Academy [00:01:00] Award-winning company behind films like An Inconvenient Truth, The Help, and Green Book, where she helped scale the organization from startup to a globally recognized mission-driven company.
She went on to consult and advise category-defining companies, including Thrive Market, Dave, and FabFitFun. Today, Laurie helps leaders cut through the noise, trust themselves more deeply, and build careers and businesses that are as meaningful as they are successful. And I have to tell you, this is the third time I'm interviewing Laurie for a podcast.
The first time was on The Other 50%: A Herstory of Hollywood, when she was working at Participant Media. The second time was for Catch a Break: The Insider's Guide to Navigating Hollywood. , Both of those you can still find and listen to her interviews. And how lucky am I that Laurie's now a coach and is on this podcast. Laurie, hello. I'm so happy to see you.
Laurie Luh: Oh my gosh, I'm so happy to see you too, and that this is the... Three's a charm, right? But the other two were
Julie Harris Oliver: Three's the
Laurie Luh: as well. Yeah. We're kind of growing up together, I think, you and me[00:02:00]
Julie Harris Oliver: I was gonna say, like, how much do we have in common?
Laurie Luh: A lot. Yeah
Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. now that you're a coach, tell me how you got to coaching
Laurie Luh: gosh. You know, I mean, honestly, I've listened to a few of your podcasts or a lot of your podcasts, and on some of them people have said similar things, so sorry for the repeat. But I do think in a way this was always in the cards for me, just part of my dharma destiny path, because I've been doing this for free for as long as I can remember.
And like you said, in my bio, I spent a lot of time at Participant Media. I was the head of people there. When I w- I was always coaching people, you know? At any point, I was always coaching them in my office. I hit a point where I wasn't as happy as I thought I should be, and so I hired a coach, this is probably sounding familiar 'cause I've heard other people say this on your podcast, to figure out what, what I wanted to do with my life, and lo and behold, as I was talking to them, I [00:03:00] realized that's what I wanted to do.
So yeah, it's been-- I think it's been, like, close to 10 years now that I've been coaching in some fashion. I was also consulting at the same time, and during the pandemic I switched to pure executive coaching without any of the HR consulting with it.
Julie Harris Oliver: Nice.
Laurie Luh: Yeah, I love it
Julie Harris Oliver: because everyone's path to coaching is completely different, but kind of that, "Here's how I figured out this is what I should be doing," there's definitely some overlap there
Laurie Luh: Yeah. Yeah. And it's one of the things that I literally would do for free. If, if the world was coming to an end, I would keep coaching, depending on how quickly it was coming to an end, I would keep coaching.
Julie Harris Oliver: You would be the coach they take to Paradise.
Laurie Luh: Exactly.
Julie Harris Oliver: you seen that show?
Laurie Luh: I'd be like, "How's it going on your end? You okay?" "I think we got a few more minutes.
Julie Harris Oliver: We have 20 minutes till this is
Laurie Luh: Keep telling me your [00:04:00] story."
Julie Harris Oliver: So tell me, what did you bring for us to talk
Laurie Luh: There was so much. I went back and forth many times with this, but what's been coming up for me and a lot of my clients recently and kind of at the heart of a lot of the coaching that I do is our resistance to change, why we're so resistant to it, and, and honestly what we can do about it, what's worked for me, what's worked for my clients, what I'm still trying to push through myself.
Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah.
Laurie Luh: what felt
Julie Harris Oliver: I mean
Laurie Luh: juicy, as you say.
Julie Harris Oliver: It is so juicy and it is so much of what coaching is about. So lay it out.
Laurie Luh: Well,
Julie Harris Oliver: mean?
Laurie Luh: for me, there's pretty much three buckets that, that I'm coaching on at any given moment. There's the communication bucket. You know, there's something going on with the communication. They're afraid to say something. They need to stick up for themselves, you name it, personally and professionally.
There's the strategic coaching that goes around either their business or their career, what they should do. And [00:05:00] then there's this huge space where they're either in limbo somewhere, they're feeling stuck, they, they say they don't know what to do next, and they're-- or something is starting to happen and they're afraid, they feel out of control.
And I've just lumped that into the we are resistant to change bucket, because I believe the truth is we do know what the answer is. We've just kind of buried it or we're afraid to admit it. So for me as a coach, my job is just to ask those questions and help pull it out of them. The information's there
Julie Harris Oliver: And sometimes it's right at the surface. Sometimes I'll just ask people, "Okay, what do you wanna do?" Like with no preamble,
Laurie Luh: Yeah
Julie Harris Oliver: it comes out of their mouth. And then like, and then you can start, right?
Laurie Luh: Agreed
Julie Harris Oliver: what you really wanna do, what's the holdup?
Laurie Luh: it. Then the next is like, "What's stopping you?" And then there comes the barrage of all the things that are stopping [00:06:00] them. Yeah. Which seems like a ping pong match. You know, I think it's, it'd be amazing if we could obviously record all of our coaching sessions. Some people want that and some people don't.
It still doesn't transcribe word for word yet, but it would be amazing for people to see what they've actually said word for word because it, it doesn't make sense sometimes. They actually know that they can't fail, that it's gonna be okay, that maybe it's the best thing for them, that they've wanted it their whole lives, and yet it still doesn't allow them to move into that next level.
It's not enough
Julie Harris Oliver: So what do you think it is? Like, I'm thinking about a particular client right now where we've admired the problem for a long time. And, and he knows, "Oh, here's all the things I need to do change." And yet he finds himself in the moment, he has the list of strategies, the list [00:07:00] of things he needs to do, and he cannot get himself to do it And so he's still stuck and still saying, "I feel stuck," and still saying... And at this point he's saying, "I don't know why I can- I don't know why I can't make this change." What do you, what do you say to someone when they're in that spot?
Laurie Luh: Well, don't you think that part of the-- Because by the way, I am them. You know, as much as I'm coaching them, I'm, you
Julie Harris Oliver: We
Laurie Luh: I can identify completely. So
Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah.
Laurie Luh: I'm looking at, at, at the, in the mirror basically most of the time and I'm saying, "You, we're creatures of habit," right? So even the resistance that I know I should be doing this but I can't becomes part of the habit, becomes part of the story.
So that's something that we need to s- work on and change right away. There's a, there's a Instagram quote from Jennifer Lopez that I saw 100 years ago that I've basically like tattooed on my brain, where she said, "At some point you either want it bad enough or you don't." You know? [00:08:00] So I think in some ways for me when I look at how I kind of beat down that resistance to change, and, and you have too, I mean, made really big leaps in your life.
But my company is called Jump Consulting for that reason because eventually, yeah, like I'll, I'll go for it, but it's the eventually I'll go for it. So we-- it's one, starting to feel like it's possible, you know, tricking ourselves if we need to into believing I can make this happen. I am worthy of this.
It's not going to break me. It's, the success isn't going to crush me. The failure wouldn't crush me. There's no harm in trying. And really find like some micro steps that they can do there to start to make the change happen. And at the same time, I actually like a bit of visualization, affirmations, you know, not in the woo [00:09:00] manifesting way, but just we need to trick
our, our, trick our brains into this somehow.
So getting them to stop thinking that they're procrastinators or that they wouldn't be good at this or they're just, it's too late, you know, they're creatures of habit, they're not gonna change. Not
Julie Harris Oliver: too late. It's not.
Laurie Luh: I thought I, it was too late at 31. At 31, I was afraid to move from Delaware to Los Angeles because I was like, "It's too late to start over. It's too late." It's, like, laughable
Julie Harris Oliver: It's ridiculous, especially thinking about it now, like we- sorry listeners who are 31, babies with so much life ahead.
Laurie Luh: Yeah
Julie Harris Oliver: You ever see that thing where, you know, Vera Wang started her company at 52? Like, there's this whole list. Arianna Huffington started her company at 60. Like, it's never too late to do the thing that you wanna do
Laurie Luh: Never too late to do the thing you wanna do. And if we look for that [00:10:00] evidence, it's out there. There's proof of it, yeah, that we can start at any time. And it does kind of wait for you. I mean, I don't know about you, but for coaching specifically, it came up for me many times where people asked me to coach them,
Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, for years.
Laurie Luh: And I would give them to other people. I would say, "Oh, no, I, no, I don't do that," or, "I can't do that." And then I would give them to other people. It took so long before I got comfortable enough and felt ready enough to do it for myself
Julie Harris Oliver: Was it a moment for you or was it a gradual,
Laurie Luh: was gradual. And I was actually doing a little bit, which is kind of the micro step piece of it. I m- I was excited by it the moment that I had my own coach and realized you could get paid for this? Like, I would do this for free. I do do this for free, but the difference was-- And she wasn't even more business experienced than me.
She had more coaching experience than me, obviously. But sh- I, I wanted... I am a bit of a perfectionist, and so I wanted to have [00:11:00] certain checked boxes first
Julie Harris Oliver: Hmm
Laurie Luh: I tried to go down that road. So, I started coaching people on their careers, 'cause I felt like I was safer there. I'm like 20 years of human resources, like I can coach people on their careers.
Julie Harris Oliver: sweet spot
Laurie Luh: Yeah. And then I started to transition, like I can coach more junior people. I just don't wanna get to the founder or even like the C-suite level, so I would take those on during HR consulting. And then I started telling the CEOs at the companies where I was HR consulting in some of the C-suites, like, "We should have one-on-ones.
We should be meeting to talk about the business." But in there, I was also baking in, you know, a fair amount of coaching, because if they wanted change within their leadership, it kinda had to start with them. So, I feel like by the time I actually put the flag in the sand, I was already a coach. I was already doing it.
I just slapped on a title
Julie Harris Oliver: We talk a lot about experiments. Like, [00:12:00] that's a micro baby step.
Laurie Luh: That's the micro baby step
Julie Harris Oliver: a thing? Let's do like low stakes. Try a thing.
Laurie Luh: Yeah.
Julie Harris Oliver: Try a thing.
Laurie Luh: Yeah
Julie Harris Oliver: Write a thing.
Laurie Luh: That's it. Yeah. Even, you know, if you thought about this is what your thir- third podcast, I guess. But my friends that have started podcast, they s- they went around and around and around, what if it fails? What if it succeeds? And finally it's like, why don't you just shoot one? Just shoot it. You don't even have to air it.
Just shoot the podcast and see what it feels like. You wanna start a newsletter? I started a newsletter, which I know you just, you mentioned. Thank you. It, it... I just started writing a couple of newsletters. How does that feel? Could I do it? What kind of cadence could I... You know, showed it to a few people.
What do you think? Is this any good? Would you read this? And then once I felt like I, it, it, it was ready/right, put it out there to a small group of people
Julie Harris Oliver: I think sometimes we get hung up on, like, the dream. Like, if the dream feels [00:13:00] too big, and if you take a step towards that, oh my God, what if all of that comes true? Then what? Like, that can be as paralyzing as I think I'm gonna fall on my face
Laurie Luh: Yeah, I agree. That's the Marianne Williamson quote that you and I both like, yeah, that we're actually more fearful of our greatness. And I, I wrote a newsletter about why we procrastinate, and in there, the, the client who's a composite of basically various clients that I work with, was afraid she would succeed, it turns out.
Yeah, because it would change her life, and we, we're so happy in our comfort zones. Even if we, even if we're not happy literally in our day-to-day life, the idea of moving outside of that comfort zone is petrifying because it's what we know. This is how we stay safe.
Julie Harris Oliver: So there's a concept let me make sure I get the name right Robert Kegan and Lisa Laskow Lahey [00:14:00] talk about which is immunity to change. So why people don't change even if they really, really want to, and I, I'm, I'm not... I may not explain this great, but the concept is because the opposite of the change you wanna make, you are deeply committed to for probably some really good reason. So figuring out you are getting out of not changing or what that behavior that you're saying you don't want is actually providing you, what it's protecting you from, what core belief is reinforcing, that can unlock you being actually willing to change. But until you address the thing, it's really hard.
Laurie Luh: Yeah. And those are great questions to ask. And of course, having a coach helps, but I, before I had a coach, and I had that coach for a while, and then I didn't have a coach for some years, I started a journaling practice, and I would ask [00:15:00] myself those kinds of questions all the time and found they were really helpful in getting out of my own way because I would kind of rant, you know?
And then through that rant, I would see, oh, this is ridic- you know, this is ridiculous. There-- I've got to be able to, to come up with something. And I did find that in a lot of my circumstances, I was afraid that my, that my comfortable, the comfortable existence I had worked so hard on, the peace that is kind of my daily life would be disrupted by whatever the thing was that I was attempting to do.
These are with bigger changes
Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. So then, and the other thing is in some circumstances, pain of staying the same has to become greater
Laurie Luh: Yeah.
Julie Harris Oliver: than your fear about the change
Laurie Luh: right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what happens a lot. You know, when I finally did decide to leave Delaware, it became bigger than me. Like, the, the [00:16:00] desire to leave became stronger than the, the comfortableness that I felt around staying, the security in staying there.
Julie Harris Oliver: Mm-hmm.
Laurie Luh: just needed to go, but I had taken steps.
Like, I think it's funny that people look like they've jumped, they've done something, you know, they quit the job, they got the divorce, they moved across the
Julie Harris Oliver: looks
Laurie Luh: country. It looks so dramatic, and of course, there is a moment where it does become dramatic, but there's so many things that happen before that to lead up to it.
And I do think that part of it is asking those questions from Immunity to Change, which are so gorgeous, doing a lot of the inner work, and then slowly starting to find a path where it looks like it's gonna be okay. You know? I, I used to play the what's the worst that can happen, what's the best that could happen game and get that down on paper or on the [00:17:00] computer or in my AI now.
But to, to play that out all the way. And oftentimes, and I do it with my clients all the time, oftentimes I would find that there, there really isn't a worst-case scenario. You
Julie Harris Oliver: There, it's
Laurie Luh: with, yeah, with leaving Participant when- to start my own company, I was petrified. It took me three years. I hired the coach in 2010.
I left in 2013. Some of that was by design because I knew that there was some gremlins I needed to tame at the company that would follow me if I went to another company, and I didn't wanna go to another company. I wanted to, to work for myself, so I wanted the title. I wanted the experience. You know, there was some boxes, again, I wanted to check.
But along the way, I really did have to start to get comfortable with the idea and start to see myself as a, a consultant. I, I started surrounding myself with people that had left their jobs, specifically in human resources and operations, and started their own consulting firm. So [00:18:00] then the like-minded people I was spending time with became familiar.
Like, if they can do it, I can do it. With with, with even starting to write now, I started to hang out with more writers to understand what their process was so I could do more of what they were doing and just being around them. And they're like, "Oh, my agent and the book publisher," whatever. It just started to become more usual vernacular
Julie Harris Oliver: Uh-huh. there's something so powerful in being able to see it
Laurie Luh: Yeah, you gotta see it, I think, to believe it. But you can see it in person, you can see it online, you know, you can, you can see it in your mind's eye. Yeah, I have a visualization. I've recorded my own visualization that I do every single morning as part of my meditation practice, the future that I wanna
Julie Harris Oliver: Beautiful.
Laurie Luh: Yeah
Julie Harris Oliver: I'd love to double-click on something you said a minute ago, just to see if it's what I'm thinking it is. When you said you stayed another three years because there were some gremlins that you knew would follow
Laurie Luh: [00:19:00] Yeah.
Julie Harris Oliver: job.
Laurie Luh: Yeah.
Julie Harris Oliver: Explain that
Laurie Luh: Ugh. I am such a people pleaser. I mean, it's like an epidemic for so many, and I had spent so much of my career trying to prove that I was really good and wanting people to like me that I became resentful because I didn't feel like I was getting the recognition that I needed. I wasn't getting the help that I needed because I was the head of people, so if anybody was gonna advocate for more hires, it was actually me for me, and that felt weird.
If I wanted to get a promotion, like, the only person to advocate for it was kinda me for me. I knew everyone's salary. So it felt odd to put myself in that position, but it's, it's what I had done honestly in my personal life. It's what I had done in my y- you know, in my marriage in Delaware. And so there was an inner voice that was slightly whispering, "If you go," which I could do, I could take other, you know, I could just take another [00:20:00] job and start all over again, "it'll follow me."
Like, there's lessons here for me. I actually have a chance to kinda slay that dragon or at least tame it down a bit, yeah, by learning.
Julie Harris Oliver: so true
Laurie Luh: It's--
Julie Harris Oliver: that
Laurie Luh: People come to me all the time. They're like, "You quit. You know, I wanna quit. Like, coach me." And n- most of the time it's the exact opposite. Like, maybe we'll get you to a place where you're leaving, but I want you to go towards something, not run away from something.
So there's always lessons in there for you, always
Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, like what part of this environment that is making you nuts, like what is actually your part in it and what could you actually shift? Because yeah, that circumstance is gonna show up at the next place
Laurie Luh: 100%. That's right
Julie Harris Oliver: be like, "Oh, now I gotta quit this place," when really it's not always true
Laurie Luh: No. Yeah. And I think if it triggers you, because what triggers you might not trigger me in the same way. I mean, it might bother me obviously if someone's [00:21:00] being mean to me or something like that. But what I infer into it versus what you infer is based on our triggers. So I absolutely wanna be able to double-click on when I'm upset by something and do the work around it.
And it's the same thing when we're afraid of, of, of change. It's like, answer that. Why? You know, going back to immunity to change. What's coming up for you? Because the fear is data, and what, and what lies beneath that fear is what we need to work on. Because the desire, what you want, is waiting there for you.
I honestly feel like, I don't know about you, but for me, everything that I've really wanted s- it, I think it's on my path. You know? It's there for a reason. Yeah.
Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah
Laurie Luh: a lot of breadcrumbs and signal around it. So and I have to get out of my own way, but that's part of the journey. It's not like I'm doing anything wrong.
It's [00:22:00] part of why we're here
Julie Harris Oliver: Sometimes it takes time
Laurie Luh: Oh my God, it takes time
Julie Harris Oliver: and in its right time it'll happen
Laurie Luh: Yeah. I tell my clients all the time, I'm like, "This is a short long game or a long short game, however you wanna look at it." You know? Like, there's no there that you're trying to get to, so just
Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah.
Laurie Luh: lean in.
Julie Harris Oliver: You're not gonna get there and be done
Laurie Luh: Right. Exactly, 'cause the goal will change. Believe me, when I finally got to the, the top of the ladder at Participant, I was like, "Whew, great.
Okay." And then all of a sudden I wanted something else. Then HR consulting, super popular, great, could've stayed there. Nope, wanted to start coaching. Then coaching, hmm, this is lovely. Nope, now I wanna start, now I wanna try to write a book.
Why?
Julie Harris Oliver: Is, I kinda wanna ask you, is there anything right now, like are you resisting any change right
Laurie Luh: Writing the book. Writing the book, writing the book, writing the book, writing the book, writing the book.
Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, okay.
Laurie Luh: The-- I [00:23:00] hired
Julie Harris Oliver: more
Laurie Luh: I hired a... It's, like, mortifying. I hired a book coach in 2024?
Halfway through 2024, and we worked on a proposal for the book for like a year basically. That's why it was taking so long to figure out, like has it really been as long as I think it has? And so somewhere in mid-2025, 2025, we finished the proposal, and she liked it enough to give it to her own agent, which she's never done before.
You know, we're coaches. Like I don't refer you bus- I don't, I'm not gonna give you, you know, my, my Rolodex. But if I felt like, "Oh, you should, you should go after this job. I know Julie. Let me call her." Like only if I really think you're gonna be great for the job, not to do you a solid because I'm coaching you.
So I... And, and it was the same with her. This was her business, so she wasn't just turning around and giving everybody, you know, inroads into her network. But she actually referred me [00:24:00] straight to her her agent, and then I think one or two other agents who didn't respond to the material. And in my, in my mind I was like, "Well, now I gotta, I gotta build up my social media presence.
That's what it is. It's a social media presence." And so then I start...
Julie Harris Oliver: that what you made up?
Laurie Luh: What's that?
Julie Harris Oliver: It wa- is that the story you made
Laurie Luh: That's a story I made up. Yeah. And so I decided to start the newsletter, which I actually, I think the story we make up can still-- I mean, the universe is gonna help however it can. So the newsletter's been really helpful. The newsletter is the book in, in a truncated form.
Those are the characters in the book, and those are largely the stories, but they're just in five-minute, you know, soundbites versus deep chapters where we're actually doing real coaching, and my own story gets infused into it as well. But I, at the beginning of the year said, "All right. It's time to sit down and start writing the book," [00:25:00] and have not spent as much time as I could have doing it.
It is not as far along as was on the plan
Julie Harris Oliver: What makes it hard?
Laurie Luh: I think it's the idea I think it's... Well, it's a couple things. One is the, "Who am I to do this?" Like, really, you're, you're, you're a writer, you're an author now. You know, you, you're, you're in a place where you can do this in your life where people wanna read this. And then the other is, it's kind of like, what if I fail?
But then the other is, what if it is really successful? Like, oh, would I have to do book tours? Would, would... You know, this is silly, but, like, would people then
Julie Harris Oliver: to go on Oprah?
Laurie Luh: me at Whole Foods? You know?
Julie Harris Oliver: A
Laurie Luh: And then would the agent
Julie Harris Oliver: to me once, like, "Let's hope that becomes a problem.
Laurie Luh: I
Julie Harris Oliver: Let's hope
Laurie Luh: [00:26:00] it's funny that, and again, this happens with my clients all the time, when you say it out loud, when you play it out, it's ridiculous. I even did the math on if I did, if I self-published it. You know, you could just self-publish this thing. It's very popular these days.
I mean, even people that have agents and have had publishing deals have chosen to self-publish because their network is as such or their following is as such. It's like, "I'll make more money this way," or they'll have more control or whatever. For people like you and me, a book gets you on more c- podcasts, it gets you speaking deals.
I mean, it, it gets you a couple more clients. It get- pays for itself really, really quickly. So, the negative is gone. It's not expensive when you look at it that way. If it, if it doesn't succeed, it's still, you know, you wrote a book and it gives you some level of authority there in the room, and you probably will get some business off of [00:27:00] it.
And the best case scenario is, you know, it's on Oprah. I've listened to Oprah's podcast. She's had two authors on recently that are first time authors that have hit the "New York Times" bestsellers list, and one of them, Theo Goldin, that everybody's talking about, he self-published it. No social media. The guy's in his...
The guy's, like, 70. He was, he's a retired judge. Oh, yeah. Yeah. My mom said it's one of the best books she's ever read
Julie Harris Oliver: Oprah?
Laurie Luh: Yeah. So
Julie Harris Oliver: Amazing
Laurie Luh: he self-published it. His niece helped him put it together. He just wanted to do it. He wasn't even... He wrote it, he wasn't even gonna show it to anyone. He showed it to some guy friends, again, like probably in their late 60s and 70s, and they were like, "Dude, you should do something about it."
So he took that micro step. But to, to help anyone listening, I do think that part of this is we shouldn't be thinking about the best or worst case scenario for the most part. I mean, if it, if you've gotta do it to get over yourself, fine. But he had no [00:28:00] idea that was coming. And the woman that I was listening to on the podcast today, I forgot the name of her book, but it's like literally Oprah's podcast that came out this week.
She, she wrote this book, it was her eighth book, and she wrote it for herself. Like her agent kept saying, "Let me see it." And she's like, "No, no, no. This is the, this is the..." Like what she say, just a palate quencher, you know? It's just a reset for me. I wanted to write this book for myself.
Julie Harris Oliver: a journal
Laurie Luh: It's a journal entry.
But, but for me, I find when I trick myself into writing that way or like it's a journal entry, like you don't have to... This is, you're just writing. No one's ever gonna see this. Or when I started co- starting like to coach people for free, or I would say to a CEO, "We're just having a one-on-one. I just wanna see what's going on with you."
Like the pressure was off of me as much as it was off of him or her, which was great. So to answer your question, I've got silly thoughts that when I say them out loud I [00:29:00] know couldn't possibly be the reason, and yet they are. It's just, it would, something my life would change. Like my life would change.
And I like it. I like where it is right now. It's safe. It's easy. It's fun. I would do it if this was my last day on earth. Why would I, you know, why should I shake it up? And yet at some point it'll be...
Julie Harris Oliver: you're not gonna have any control over your life
Laurie Luh: Yeah, exactly.
Julie Harris Oliver: Like who, then who's gonna be in charge of your
Laurie Luh: I know. Like in every turn I've been able to keep my life the way I want to in ev- in, in every turn, so this wouldn't be any different.
Yeah, I am who I am
Julie Harris Oliver: So it's the, It's funny 'cause I just wrote my newsletter about this and published it this morning. The we call, you know, the shitty committee,
Laurie Luh: Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm
Julie Harris Oliver: that y- you know is not true, but it's [00:30:00] so loud. I, I realized a long time ago that my brain was lying to me about a lot of things. So, like, for example, today I published a newsletter. I am I'm pretty sure, like, I'm bare naked on LinkedIn, and was gonna hate it and hate me, and it's stupid, and why'd I do that, and it's way too vulnerable, and what am I doing? and so now I d- I have a few people read it who I think will not lie to me, and then I just push publish, and I walk away.
Like, I just have to force myself to do it, even though if it crashes and burns, it's a self-inflicted wound. it feels to me an important thing that I need to do, like, for myself and for my writing and for my business and, like, all the things. And so the, the torture I go through to get it out,
Laurie Luh: Well, I, I-- don't you think for myself and for my clients, they'll say something like, "Well, and this is [00:31:00] exhausting. You know, it's exhausting." And
Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah
Laurie Luh: they're talking about the, the, the job itself, the relationship with the boss, the, you know, thinking about asking for this promotion, whatever it is. But the key is it's the thinking about it.
It's not the doing it. If I spent a fraction of this year writing instead of talking myself out of writing, the book would probably be done by now. There was so much inner dialogue going on that's unnecessary. So
Julie Harris Oliver: relief of having it over
Laurie Luh: Yeah
Julie Harris Oliver: good. And then really It's like going to the gym. I wanna be the person who has gone to the gym today. I wanna be the person who has written the thing. Or if you wanna be the person who has done the thing, really only one way to get
Laurie Luh: Yeah. Yeah. There was a quote in my, in the procrastination newsletter that said, "The heaviest weight in the gym is the front door." Like, [00:32:00] it's, you
Julie Harris Oliver: Of your house to get
Laurie Luh: yeah,
Julie Harris Oliver: your
Laurie Luh: exactly. Yeah, of your bedroom. But it, it, when I was in HR, all the time someone would say afterwards, "I don't know why we didn't do this sooner."
No matter what it was, hire the people, let people go, like, you know, make the change, but make the change. I don't know why we didn't do this sooner. Every time I've finally, you know, gone for it, it's like, that wasn't, that wasn't so hard. I actually enjoy writing the newsletters once I sit down and start to get into the flow of them.
It's fun. And the same thing with when I was working on the proposal, 'cause I spent a lot of time in the, in the book chapters actually fleshing them out. Like, it was lovely, but you just have to, you have to get there. You know, you have to walk through that, that front door, and I think that's just the... But there's some tricks, and I do think even though I still get in my own way, I get out of it eventually.
It just takes me a while. I did leave Delaware. I did leave Participant. You know, I [00:33:00] did start coaching. I did put that flag in the sand. So, I do check the boxes. I'm a stubborn Taurus, literally, you know? So it takes me... I'm also a double Pisces, so I'm as dreamy, like I'm dreamy and stubborn. Like I wish, but I won't do anything, so it takes a while to get there.
But it'll happen. Yeah
Julie Harris Oliver: think it gets easier with each big thing that you do. The next one's a little easier. And you brought up just now, do I hire the person? Do I let the person go? When it comes to I'm sure you have done this scenario a lot of times, coaching someone through letting someone go
Laurie Luh: All the time
Julie Harris Oliver: who they absolute- And y- it's so clear as day from the outside that like you should have let them go two years ago, actually. But there's so many stories wrapped up in, was I a good enough boss, or they have this life circumstance that somehow I'm now responsible for. And, and when you pull it all apart, it's that you're caring about their job more than they're caring about their job. [00:34:00] And so that first time is so hard
Laurie Luh: Yeah
Julie Harris Oliver: get to the place where you can let them go, and then you are so relieved the amount of energy you are putting out to managing that person who doesn't even wanna be there is so monumental, and it's so hard to make that change because of e- all the stories in your brain about what it says about you as a person But for
Laurie Luh: is, it goes back to that immunity to change. It's funny 'cause when I said that about hiring and, and letting people go, I was honestly only thinking about letting people go. And I say this to my clients all the time. I try not to tip my hat, but it's hard not to when I was the head of people for so long, and even fractionally longer after that.
But m- in my entire career, honestly, Julie, no one has ever regretted the termination that I can think of, not one. In every single case--
Julie Harris Oliver: it sooner
Laurie Luh: That's right. They wish they would've done it sooner. And, you know, I think you and I are similar ages. It does get easier. We-- [00:35:00] Everything, because we learn so much from the past that we're, we're-- Even if we fall, we're not gonna die.
You know, even if it doesn't work out, something will come from it. Nelson Mandela said, "I never lose. I either win or learn." Like, I agree, you know? The, the-- If we can take the lesson away from it, it'll take us where we wanted to go. Before you and I started the, the podcast, you actually shared with me, you're like, "Yeah, but, you know, if we had moved sooner, these other things wouldn't have happened."
That's the thing. Like, I, I could have started coaching sooner, and it would've been fine, but I love that I picked up so much HR consulting, and I was working for all these big tech companies in LA, and I learned so much about the business side that I do think it's made me a better coach. And so I'm, I'm glad that I stayed.
And it wasn't like I didn't like what I was doing. I just was thinking, kind of beating myself up a little bit, like I'm [00:36:00] turning down coaching business because of some imposter syndrome or some weird timeline that I have in my mind. But it worked out
Julie Harris Oliver: It usually
Laurie Luh: Yeah.
Julie Harris Oliver: a lot of things can be true at the same
Laurie Luh: It kind of
Julie Harris Oliver: there is do the thing that's in front of
Laurie Luh: Yeah.
Julie Harris Oliver: action towards what you want
Laurie Luh: Yeah
Julie Harris Oliver: and there's also the timing that is meant. There's the divine timing of it all, and trusting in that even when it's uncomfortable. Like, I'm in that right now. I'm in limbo. have a house that's in escrow, and in Tennessee for some reason, there are a million reasons why you can get out of an escrow. Like, up until the day of, so that's a little unsettling. You know, making other decisions like do we get another place to live, and where, and when?
And like, in that limbo is uncomfortable, and I trust it is going to work out the way that it's supposed to work out
Laurie Luh: Absolutely. The house that I'm in right now, when I went to [00:37:00] see it the first time, 'cause I moved from LA to Ventura, which was another wild swing, should've been on my, you know, things I jumped for list. But I turned it down. I looked at it and I was like, "I don't think this is for me." And then I spent some time looking some more, and actually wrote in a journal, "I should've taken that, that house in Ventura that I think that was my house."
And then wrote, you know, "If it was meant to be, it'll come back again." And I swear to you, 24 hours later, I got an email or a text from my real estate agent saying that the seller had reached out and that the buyer was probably gonna fall out of escrow, and would I be the backup offer? Which by the way, I, I actually was like, "Well played universe," because I was a little bit scared to, to, to pull the actual trigger, but being the backup isn't nearly as scary.
It's kind of like I put my chips on the table, but I didn't have to-- I didn't commit all the
Julie Harris Oliver: in
Laurie Luh: So, and then of course the backup ended up being me [00:38:00] full-time in the house.
Julie Harris Oliver: are the next rightful owner of the house
Laurie Luh: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so there is a little bit of what's meant for you. It hangs around for as long as it can. You know, I do think that there's some expiration dates on, on things, but I, I do think it takes as long as it takes.
And this year of, of stirring with the book has changed the book a little bit, which is interesting. I realized in writing the newsletter and reading other people's newsletters that I'm gonna have to put more of me in it. Not memoir, but just don't hide behind the clients per se. You know, be vulnerable is what's been coming up
Julie Harris Oliver: Painful. It's painful but, but yeah, that's what people relate to and are drawn to
Laurie Luh: And don't you think in today's day and age as AI becomes so popular in every aspect [00:39:00] of, of the world, including writing, that when someone can share a real meaningful story and put themselves out there, that's what, you know, that's what we all want? It's-- Yeah, 'cause then I can see you. I can see you and I can see me in you, which is really the most important thing.
Like, if you were to rant about this house and limbo and why isn't it working out, I would, I would te- I would text you, I would comment on it, you know, whatever. But if you just put up some pretty quote or whatever that you made in Canva that your AI made for you, they're everywhere
Julie Harris Oliver: Let's be real, people.
Laurie Luh: Yeah.
Julie Harris Oliver: be real. We might as well
Laurie Luh: Give me the messy part
Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. I'm looking at the time and we've, we're, I, we've been talking a long time.
Laurie Luh: Ja,
Julie Harris Oliver: What would you, kinda what would you leave us with? And I, I know we went all over the place, but that's the beauty of a podcast.
Laurie Luh: I know.
Julie Harris Oliver: what would you leave us with?
Laurie Luh: there's some threads. I mean, I [00:40:00] would- one, I think everyone, if, if someone's in a place where they're resisting change, start asking yourself some questions or call someone who you trust to ask yourself some questions around what's- what are you afraid of? You know, what do you want and what's holding you back?
And what would, would be a good outcome and what would be a scary outcome in this? And let's see if we can find some tiny little, just tiny little steps that don't get your, your, the, you know, yourself all riled up. Like, what's a little something you can do? Can you just set a timer? Like for me, you know, if you were coaching me, maybe it's can you set a timer to write for 20 minutes tomorrow?
Can you literally find... Yeah. What- can you, can you, can you write for 15 minutes and then text me?
Julie Harris Oliver: [00:41:00] Mm-hmm.
Laurie Luh: You know, what can...
Julie Harris Oliver: gonna see?
Laurie Luh: Yeah. Yeah. What can you do? I, I've got clients that wanna start posting more on social media. It's like, well, then just record yourself and don't post it. That way there's no fear in it. Just if you wanna write a newsletter, just write one th- that you're not gonna publish.
Or if you, or if you wanna, if you wanna think about starting a business, work with, you know, AI or a friend or something, or sit down and make the business plan. Start writing, just noodle out the business plan back of the napkin. Like, what can you do? You know, what can you do? And I do think there's something to either surrounding yourself if you wanna be a, a, a self-employed, if you wanna be a writer, if you wanna be, you know, whatever the thing is, get yourself around some of those people.
Because we are really the sum total of who we spend our time with. So if you're around [00:42:00] coaches, like you and I started to be, all of a sudden this, "I couldn't be a coach, you know, that'd be insane," starts to just naturally slot into the world of possibility. Yeah. Give yourself a chance, you know? If you're, if, if there's something that you want, I really do think it's there for a reason.
There's normally some signal around it too. The people that asked you for coaching for years, the people that asked me for coaching for years.
Julie Harris Oliver: Other people telling you.
Laurie Luh: Yeah, calling you for advice.
Julie Harris Oliver: is asking you to do
Laurie Luh: Yeah. So g- give it a real shot. You know, realize that your, your mind is always talking you out of anything different from what you're doing today.
Eating differently, dressing differently. It, whether-
Julie Harris Oliver: old commercial for tires where they're like, "What kind of tires you want?" And the guy would say, "I want ones like the ones on my car."
Laurie Luh: That's right. Yeah
Julie Harris Oliver: let's lower the stakes [00:43:00] on those little those little bitty steps.
Laurie Luh: Yeah. Those people, yeah, the people that don't wanna fire the person, you're right. There's also the, "I-- they are loyal to me. They just bought a house. They just had a baby," whatever. But there's also the, "Then I have to find someone else, and what are they gonna be like?" You know, there is that fear of, "What if it's actually worse with someone else?
This is what I know, and it's gotten me
Julie Harris Oliver: or a
Laurie Luh: here."
Julie Harris Oliver: is, is better than no
Laurie Luh: That's right.
Julie Harris Oliver: months.
Laurie Luh: "And what if I have to do this thing for," yeah, "six months?" And what do we say? "Why don't you just, like, start looking around? You know, why don't you..." I mean, there's so many ways to do this, to have a conversation with the person. I think there's so many small steps.
Like, life is built in small steps, so these huge leaps come way later, and you're, you're normally ready-ish, you know, or, or willing to do it at the time. But the, the small steps is, you know, where it starts. The heavy bedroom door, the heavy front door, eventually the heavy gym [00:44:00] door. Yeah.
Julie Harris Oliver: The closet door that my
Laurie Luh: Yeah. Do something.
Don't, don't just sit around talking about it. Like, do something
Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah, 'cause then you, you know, 10 years ago by and you're like, "Well, I coulda
Laurie Luh: Could have. Yeah.
Julie Harris Oliver: I coulda
Laurie Luh: And we all regret, I mean, you know, we all regret really what we didn't do. Most of us aren't regretting the things that we tried. I'm so grateful for the things I tried. They led me somewhere.
Julie Harris Oliver: Mm-hmm.
Laurie Luh: Yeah
Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, where can people find you?
Laurie Luh: I, I really, my Substack is where I'm living these days, the newsletter. I'm posting more notes on there.
I'm gonna I'm gonna hit my one-year anniversary in October, and I'm gonna add a paid tier onto, a very small paid tier, but it's just for the people that want more, and then I'll start putting more on there. So I'm really leaning into Substack more as my social media hub than anywhere else. And then I have a website, just laurieluh.com, and anything that I'm doing, offering, [00:45:00] sharing will be there as well.
I've got the social.
Julie Harris Oliver: to all that
Laurie Luh: Yeah, but I'm not on there as much. If you wanna see some sunset pictures, check out my Instagram.
Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, fun.
Laurie Luh: Thank you so much,
Julie Harris Oliver: Laurie Luh, thank Julie.
much for doing this
Laurie Luh: It's great to see you again. Number three
Julie Harris Oliver: Okay.
Laurie Luh: books.
Julie Harris Oliver: Let's, let's see what we do in five years.
Laurie Luh: I know
Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. Okay, so come back when your book is published
Laurie Luh: I will. I, I promise.
Julie Harris Oliver: Okay,
Laurie Luh: All right, take care. Thanks.
This has been Deep Work Out Loud. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. I'd like to thank Lori Liu for joining the podcast. And if any of this resonates with you, please subscribe, leave a review. It's in all the podcast places, and please share this episode with a friend. And if you'd like to work with me, you can find me at julieharrisoliver.com.
And let me leave you with this invitation. If there's something that you wanna do, some change that you wanna make, something that you've been thinking about, and a little voice in your head is telling you all the reasons why you can't, or it won't work, [00:46:00] or God forbid, you're so successful that it, it changes everything and you don't have time for that, what is actually one tiny little thing that you can do?
What is the tiny next step? No stakes, just a tiny little step that you could try, a little experiment. Try that Try that, report back. Thanks for listening. See you next time