EP 4 Exploring Authenticity and Coaching with Karen Jones

Julie Harris Oliver: Welcome to Deep Work Out Loud, the thinking that fuels our life, our work, and our leadership. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. This is the podcast where I sit with another professional coach and we do some work around a single concept, a piece of inspiration, a topic we've seen come up in our coaching. If we're very lucky while we're talking about it, we might get a minute to demonstrate what coaching might look and feel like, but we'll see how this goes.

It's all an experiment. With any luck, you'll leave with something you can apply and use in your work, in your life, or both. Today I'm here with Karen Jones. In addition to her work as a coach, Karen is a communications consultant partnering with organizations and individuals to support brand and executive storytelling.

She's also an adjunct professor at uscs Annenberg School for communications and journalism. Karen is committed to fostering equitable access to education and supporting emerging leaders, especially those from under-recognized backgrounds. She is [00:01:00] on the board of Ready to Succeed, which empowers Foster impacted college students to launch successful careers.

She also serves as a governor for the television Academy, representing the public relations peer group. Before launching the Jones Code, Karen was EVP and head of communications for HBO and HBO Max. Where we met, where she led communications for the industry leading content portfolio. She was a trusted advisor to the C-suite driving senior executive communications crisis and reputation management, and spearheading Bicostal publicity teams.

Her entertainment publicity career began as a unit publicist working on feature films.

she is an alumna of Amherst College where she earned her ba magna cum loud in French,

Hi, Karen.

Karen Jones: Hi.

Julie Harris Oliver: Welcome. ,

Karen Jones: I'm so happy to, to be here and have this time with you. It's always odd hearing one's bio read. It feels like another person

Julie Harris Oliver: I know. Sorry, I had to do it in front of you. Before we dig in, can you tell us [00:02:00] what was your journey to becoming a coach?

Karen Jones: , So, in a minute or less, , , when I left my job as a television publicity executive, a role organization where I'd been for 23 years I entered into the next chapter really without a knowing what I was gonna do. But I just knew that it had to be something that was more, that was going to feel very connected to what.

Were my values then that obviously had evolved over, over the many years of my life. Over the course of really six months of deeply committed sabbatical, not taking on anything new, just learning, reading, talking to people, having lunches, breakfasts, all these different things. Two experiences were recommended to me that I ended up pursuing One.

Was a course in Cultivating Purpose that was offered by Modern Elder Academy. And that was an online course that was helpful. I also did a course called Life Forward, [00:03:00] which is offered by the Hudson Institute of Coaching. So these two things happened. During that first six month period that I really call this liminal phase of not being certain, I didn't know if I was gonna go into comms in, uh, nonprofit or education.

And coaching was an a little bit of an inkling. And so how that started to come become more clear was thinking a about the things that I was going to miss, about the job that I had. And it was really around supporting, mentoring, advocating for. We'll come back to that. But the other part of it was, um, knowing that I had been such a problem solver, problem solving was my superpower.

And the more I started to think and learn about coaching was, um, realizing that. It's not mentoring. It's not I mean, you're advocating for your client, but not in the same way that I was as a head of team. And you're also not problem solving. [00:04:00] So it suddenly became clear that, oh, this is exactly the path for me to bring to bear parts of myself that had, i've always been there, um, and had been a little bit underused and how to also learn to not be a problem solver and how to lead with much more curiosity. So, the more I learned, the more I realized that it was exactly the right path for me to be pursuing. It was it kind of, it kind of revealed itself more and more clearly along the way.

Julie Harris Oliver: Beautiful.

I relate to that so much. The problem solving, setting that down is I thought maybe one of the hardest things. Okay. So what would you like to dig into today?

Karen Jones: I think you, you probably have heard me talk about this before and, um, certainly anybody who has followed my, uh, LinkedIn content or who's been in a coaching session with me has heard me go on about this.

'cause I'm just, I'm really fascinated by this. And so this comes from Professor Frances Frei, [00:05:00] who's a professor at Harvard Business School, and it's this idea of, the trust triangle is how she frames it. With the three the three points of the triangle being empathy, logic, and authenticity. And so to back that up for a moment I believe how Professor Frei puts it is if you are experiencing a lack of trust.

With me or if you are experiencing trust with me, it can usually be traced to one of these three dimensions, either being very effective or perhaps being an area of wobble, meaning an area that I'm not as strong or as tapped into. And so again, those three pieces are empathy, logic, and authenticity.

And that's, you know, I just wanna dig into that 'cause I'm just, I'm obsessed with how relevant it often ends up being. Mm-hmm. And um, and I've also been exploring my own wobble.

Julie Harris Oliver: What do you mean? You've been exploring your own rabble?

Karen Jones: I know that sounds, those are [00:06:00] weird words, right? So, and again, the idea with these three pieces of the triangle that there's one or two that probably feel like, yeah.

You know, I, I'm good with empathy. I'm, you know, that comes to me pretty, pretty easily when I'm, most tired or, or not managing. Um, that one is is gonna come to me more easily. My wobbles are the ones where. I don't feel it's, it's like, you know, if you think of a stool with three legs what are which are the wobbly legs?

And for me, I used to think always as if you had asked me to diagnose my wobble, I would've said, well, I think it's logic. Not that I don't think of myself as a logical person. But I don't lead with logic. I am not someone who starts the sentence with, well, I think blah, da, da, da. I'm 99 times out of a hundred gonna say, I feel.

Mm-hmm. So the empathy, the feeling the being in touch with my feelings, that's always felt very strong. I get lost with, [00:07:00] um, remembering details. I get lost with remembering data points. I have to have a lot of notes to keep me on track. I've always identified logic as the place where I feel less secure.

And then I'll just throw out the third part about authenticity, because I think this is where I am right now is I'm really exploring that maybe authenticity has been my wobble all along and, uh, there's a lot of layers to that, but yeah. Yeah, yeah. But that's kind of this like, oh. Huh? I thought it was logic.

I, ooh, what if it's actually not that?

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. So much to unpack and write. Yes. At this moment I'm so grateful that I went to Francis' office hours the other day and got a little primer on this. Just to unpack it for people, when we're talking about logic.

At its base is, do you know what you're talking about?

Karen Jones: Yeah.

Julie Harris Oliver: And then authenticity is, I think we, we all know what authenticity is. And I am [00:08:00] with you on those two things. I would diagnose that in myself as well. And we both come from an industry where it's fake it till you make it. And also. Adjust your presentation to fit into that culture. Yeah, whatever that means. So then how are you looking at that now? So I'm looking at what you're describing as the wobble of, of course.

Those things happen in a high pressured, high-paced corporate environment where we both were. So how are you looking at that now? Now that you've shifted and you're doing this different career, how are you thinking about those pieces and like in terms of authenticity, finding it again?

Karen Jones: Gosh, lot, lots of thoughts there.

Julie Harris Oliver: yeah, 30 questions all at once. Go..

Karen Jones: Yeah. But the, but the one thing I just wanna capture was that Hollywood is a business of Shapeshifters. And you know, again, like yes, shout, shout out to, um, true Blood, [00:09:00] you know, from, from the, uh, from the old, the old HBO Home.

But this idea of yeah, fake it till you make it is very much a, a norm and a, an expectation of behavior. And so, where, where I'm digging in right now is this idea that a,

the origin story of the facility with which I have always been a shapeshifter and also cut to now at age 60. And as a coach if you had to write down on a short list of paper what the chief attributes of a coach that I wanna be empathy certainly is at the top of the list. Compassion presence, but authenticity.

And that doesn't mean transparency. That doesn't mean I'm over, I'm sharing all of my stories. But it means what you see is what you get. And you don't feel that I'm withholding or you also don't feel that [00:10:00] I'm, managing to intently what I'm letting come through. I don't know if that makes sense, but, as a, as a communications executive, so often you are.

Part of your business is based on, is built on the, the relationships that you make, the trusting relationships. If a journalist calls you and asks you about something you have to be able to deliver the information in a way that protects whomever you're working for, but that also honors your. The trust that you've built in this relationship.

Mm-hmm. And and so again, if we, if we go back to the triangle, many relationships with journalists, the empathy isn't necessarily the requirement. Logic, yes, you need to make sense and you need to be able to deliver your information crisply. But the authenticity of, if I don't really know.

Which side of your mouth you're talking from? I'm not gonna believe you and [00:11:00] I'm not gonna come back to you. So I know that was a, a departure, but so coming back to this idea of, you know, again, the, the two pieces really I think a lot about authenticity now as coaches I think about the mentor coaches that have really impressed me along the way, the ones that really inspired me initially to say like, that's what I want to do. That's the person that I want to be. I wanna be able to hold space and presence in the way that this person does. And even though I don't need to know everything that's going on in their personal, private life, but I'm feeling that there's not something that's gonna be wildly out of sync.

With what's coming forth. But I also, you know, I, and I nodded to this a a bit earlier, like I, I think about the origin story. I think about,

For, for me, when I talk about authenticity, a lot of it is around what I am learning around neuro complexity. And I'm really learning a lot and, and the [00:12:00] intersections between going through most of my life with undiagnosed A DHD. Kind of going, yeah, I think so. But really not . But I know from myself the shift in oh, now I gotta do some work and really learn. How this shows up in my life and how this has shown up in my life and rewind and replay the tape of my life through that lens.

I started to pick up a lot of nuances around my journey with authenticity and I feel like I'm saying all kinds of, lots of different things. And so I'd love to hear what's kind of tracking for you.

Julie Harris Oliver: The question I have in my mind as you're saying this is what might you have done differently in your career knowing what you know now?

Or would you have

Karen Jones: A big piece of it is gaining awareness around A DHD and I say this both through, the lens of lived experience, but also through the work that I'm now doing working with people with A DHD. With that information [00:13:00] and awareness starts to develop a shift in the perception from this is how I am to, this is how my A DHD shows up.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh,

interesting. Say more

Karen Jones: So from it being, , a part of my identity, and when I say this, I'm thinking probably of some of the, some of the qualities that can make life more challenging. Meaning, gosh, there, there, there's, there are many lists of them, but, you know, I'll say for me, one of the big challenges I had, you know, and I mentioned this about the logic, working memory means that, you know, you may have people who have for whom working memory is a challenge may have trouble recalling short term.

Facts data. Mm-hmm. Remembering the thing that you just told me. So I'm a publicist sitting in on interviews, monitoring for what my executive is saying so that I can give them feedback right after, so that I can correct the record if necessary, if they've, if they've misspoken there's a lot of requirements to be able to track [00:14:00] real time, what's happening.

And those are hard. Those were always hard for me. Mm-hmm. Um, so that's just a small example of something that always felt like, oh, other people can do that flawlessly. They could come back and say, okay, here's what worked, here's what didn't work me. It's like, no, I need to look over my notes. I need to reflect, I need to capture this if I can.

I'd love to follow up with you with an email later on if I can. 'cause I wanna give you my thoughtful observations versus off the cuff. So that's, that's one example. But instead of with that example having thought at the time, oh yeah that's just a real common phenomenon for people who have a DHD.

The voice in my head. Oh, why can't you do that? Like X, Y, Z can do that. Oh, why are you such a dope in that area? You know,

Julie Harris Oliver: why aren't

I better?

Karen Jones: Yeah. It, it leads it can lead to unkind self-talk. Yeah. And so the question, you know, what, how would things have played differently? [00:15:00] There probably would've been a lot less of that.

There probably would've been more just like, yeah, I need tools and, I, I resource my working memory in other ways. And which eventually I did come to own that and just acknowledge I know what my skills are and I know where my challenges are. And so the more you can figure out workarounds and outsourcing these different things but there were many years of, just time management.

Just the one probably time management, procrastination, time blindness, you know, these are often things that are most commonly cited as, things that people with a DHD experience. And so that shows up like I have to be somewhere really important. And I know that it's important and I care about being on time, and I don't like being late.

I feel that it's rude and disrespectful, and yet. Here I am. Here I am. What happened [00:16:00] is then the next thought. Oh yeah. Well, you know, time management, time blindness those are struggles. Those are real. I, I missed the cue when I should have handled that differently.

That's the beautiful supportive aware mind, evolving mind. Yeah, but the more common mind, that I might have thought or said to myself was, mm-hmm. What the hell's wrong with you? What the hell's wrong with you? Come on.

Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, the shitty inner voice. Oh, the shitty

inner voice.

Karen Jones: Oh, the shitty committee. Yes.

Julie Harris Oliver: And the shitty committee. And yet you did incredibly well in that career. And so when you're working with leaders. Who are still in an environment where they need to be authentic, but it may not always be safe to be completely authentic. How do you work with that?

Karen Jones: Well, that's a, that's a, a great thing to bring in because authenticity or feeling unsure or feeling feeling that it's [00:17:00] not safe to bring your full, authentic self forward can.

Be the result of a number of different experiences. And some of them may be that you have a neuro complex profile that you are more used to masking in situations so that people don't find out. So you're not, to your point like, yes, I was successful objectively, and yet still I stumble.

So other types of experiences, where that comes forth often is if you, if you come from any historically underrepresented. Community, whether you are a first generation college student, , who is in your first role and no one in your family has had a corporate job. And, you know, I also work with early career folks, so I, so I think about that lens, you know?

Mm-hmm. , If you are the one only of any community in any room. Not everyone, but some people experience that as [00:18:00] a challenge to how do I, is it safe to bring my full, authentic self when there's really no one in this room that I can kind of share eye contact with and, and feel like they might on some passive level support or validate me, so in those spaces, it is incredibly important, first of all to give yourself grace to understand why this is happening. Because again, the first voice, ooh, my voice, little shaky in this room. Like, yes, it might feel shaky right now because you are doing something that you haven't done before and you are not feeling safe.

And to, and just owning it, whether or not that feels. Overly dramatic. Whether that feels fully warranted. If that is what you are feeling, that is your authenticity in that moment is what you're feeling. That is what you are feeling. And so, putting aside the competing voices around suck it up, buck up, what's [00:19:00] wrong with you?

You deserve to be here. All of these things, it is moving through that discomfort, naming the discomfort and knowing like, yeah this feels uncomfortable.

Please give yourself the gift of trying to be in the room early enough so that you are not squeezing in the, the door at the last minute and everyone is looking up.

I mean, again, I'm talking about in real life. Yeah. But even on Zoom

Julie Harris Oliver: In the olden days.

Karen Jones: Yeah. But on a Zoom, you know, don't, don't be the last one in, be in,

you know,

for a few minutes where you can kind of like gauge and see what's happening and hear the, get the room tone,

Kind of

get a sense of

what the norms are for the space so you're not just, you know, flying in.

Julie Harris Oliver: The thread I, I feel like I wanna pull right now is that added layer of the shitty voices that are telling you everything that's wrong while it's happening.

And if we can just interrupt that piece of it. To be present with, okay, I'm feeling this way. [00:20:00] It doesn't mean an entire indictment on my personality and myself and my work, and all of those things, which that committee can get so into and so deep, so quickly. But being present with, oh, I feel nervous.

Let me feel that for a minute, and let it go through.

Karen Jones: And a big piece of that and sometimes how I've thought about it, how I've worked with clients about this is to really identify what is the source of that. Like, where is that coming from?

Who is that voice? Is it an external voice? Because sometimes it's an internalized voice of someone that we know. And, or, or sometimes we wanna make it an external voice by naming it and giving it a personality and giving it, um, people talk about your inner judge or your inner critic or, you know, there, there's all kinds of different ways of thinking about it.

But naming it and acknowledging that its purpose is to keep you safe. Its purpose, you know, and typically these things come from, , if you have the time, ability to unpack, again, [00:21:00] the origin story of those voices, , , they often go way, way, way, way, way far back in in our life journey and understanding that, I, I don't wanna speak in generalities, so I'll, I'll speak personally because everyone's got their own origin story. Yeah. Um, for me, I had to come to the place of really understanding. These are systems of that were designed to protect me. These were the seat belts, the airbags, the you know, the helmets, earplugs, the helmets, the the elbow guards, the wrist guard, you know what, whatever system they were developed.

At a point in life when I needed them to protect me. And so now as my grown lady self, the conversation I will have in my head sometimes is, thank you for showing up. I understand you are trying to keep me safe. I'm good. I'm good. We're gonna do this.

Julie Harris Oliver: I don't, need you now

Yeah. It's not true anymore.

Karen Jones: Yeah.

I don't need this but I. Y you [00:22:00] know, we, we all have different relationships with our, with, with our invoices, but I try to stay in a place of I don't, I don't need you now, but thank you. Thank you. You know, Elizabeth Gilbert and I think you've, you, you probably have heard me talk about Elizabeth Gilbert before.

You know, who, who talks about fear and just says, you know, fear can come along for the ride, but it doesn't get to drive. And. Thinking about these ways that these systems, you know, they're, they are evolutionary.

These have these have evolved through evolution. You know, from caveman times cave people life. These are the most foundational. And then one more thing I'll throw out there. 'cause this was something that I heard recently because sometimes.

If you, if you really have one of those relentless inner critics, give it a ridiculous voice, recast it, give it just some persona that, anything that gives you that ability. To get some distance on it to get on the balcony as we, we share that vernacular, you know, to give yourself a little bit of [00:23:00] perspective on these things.

You're not in it, you're not swimming in it, yeah. You're like, no, I see you. I see you.

Julie Harris Oliver: My husband and I do a thing. Anytime either one of us are compelled to correct the other one. Which we really don't wanna do it all, so can't help ourselves. We take on the, um, actually the and we do it like in that nerdiest way, pushing up our glasses and, uh, that helps us distance a little bit from it, but still also get in the, but actually,

Karen Jones: yeah, right.

Give it a ridiculous voice.

I, I used to have a tiny little chair that I would say, you know. You have to sit in the naughty chair, like time out in the naughty chair. I don't, you don't, you don't get to be here. You don't get to be here and

Julie Harris Oliver: you have no power

here.

Karen Jones: Yes, you, you have

no power. But again, I have evolved. The more I can, the more I can love and embrace and, be at peace with the different dimensions, you know, with I, I don't need you and I'm, and I'm not.

Your help is not needed here, but from a place [00:24:00] of, I, I try to root it in, in, in love and gratitude. And that reminds me, , let me see if I can get the four. See, here's where my logic wobble. It's like I love a framework, but ugh, it kills me sometimes to remember all the pieces of it.

So this is something that and I don't know who the originator of this is, but a, a mentor coach Penny Hanscomb that I've worked with, , has shared that, , we experience the world through four lenses fear, judgment, curiosity, and love.

And if we have a quadrant, we can kind of, we can agree on like which ones I can, I can put forth pretty safely.

I wanna stay in the love and curiosity side.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah.

Karen Jones: So that, that means in all things. And and, and that's hard because to be authentic back to that. Sometimes it's hard to be authentically grounded in a state of love or curiosity with something that feels toxic, harmful, [00:25:00] dangerous, scary. Um, scary is hard.

We're all navigating our own versions of this right now. And I just have to keep coming back. If I can't muster love, at least I, you know, meaning with regard to someone who I, I might vehemently disagree with, I can access curiosity more easily. And again, those are ways for me to stay as authentic as I can to the me that I'm, I'm really working on becoming at this point in life

Julie Harris Oliver: That really resonates with me with the, uh, curiosity piece I find out for myself, I'm very quick to, burning rage about whatever is happening. And if I can interrupt that with, let's be curious for a minute. We don't know how it's gonna turn out or what is gonna happen next, or what things are gonna be stopped.

And to drop into a place of curiosity I found is really disarming.

Karen Jones: Yeah. And yeah, we disarm ourself like we, we, um. What's the expression? [00:26:00] You know, it's yeah, disarming like the bomb. Um, yeah. You know, the the fireball of, of rage or frustration. Yeah. I don't, I don't wanna be there.

Julie Harris Oliver: The certainty you feel when you're all ramped up?

Oh yeah. I know for

sure. So, to, to interrupt that with curiosity I find is really powerful.

Karen Jones: I know. And then I'm, Hmm.

There's no, you know, there's no satisfaction in it. Sometimes initially, it feels what else could be possible, uh, but again, I say like, this is this is certainly not I'm still very much a work in progress. In my life and, and in my coaching and may, and that's one of the things, you know, to, to come back for like the capital C coaching.

That's one of the things I love about it most is the requirement and expectation that we will continue to. Evolve ourselves as humans to be able to more effectively hold that space with curiosity and presence. That is a, again, back to the first [00:27:00] part of the conversation, like for me to realize, oh, this is the lesson that I need to learn now.

This is really the, the journey that I want to be on right now. Who knows, may change, may become a, a no professional improviser, you know, I, I do that on the side. No, that, that's not, that, that will never happen. But as a hobby, it's beautiful. But but yeah, that opportunity and knowing, yeah, it's not gonna come, it's not gonna come easily and it's not always gonna come authentically.

But the more that you can hold that stance you're gonna, you're going to pave the way. For more. This was something that, Francis Frei said. The more you can as a leader the more that you as a leader can show up with empathy.

And, you know, kind of seeing what other people may be experiencing, the more you will pave the way for their authenticity. And this goes back to what I was saying about the experience of not feeling safe. And I can certainly [00:28:00] think of, um, too many rooms in which, in my own head, you know I didn't feel, I don't know, safe maybe is a heavy word here.

It didn't feel. Well, sadly, it's probably, I didn't feel like I belonged. Mm-hmm. Um, but not that that's easier than safety, but um, goes together. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, the, but certainly as I evolved in my leadership awareness of my ability to show up as with as much authenticity and empathy as possible models that for others.

To show up as authentically as possible.

Julie Harris Oliver: Yes. Let's take a minute and touch on the logic part of it, because I remember her saying in that webinar that if the moment the keep talking and you don't know what you're talking about, everyone can sense it. And so it's not worth doing because it erodes trust.

Karen Jones: Yeah. [00:29:00] And.

And what I'm what came up for me in, in hearing that? 'cause when I heard it, I said, yes, absolutely. And I know people, I've been in rooms, you know where you hear that person, you're like, wow, they're just going on. And I don't, I don't, I'm not sure they know where they're going, but I also,

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm not sure that's true.

Karen Jones: Yeah. I'm not sure that's true. But I also know what it feels like. Again, let's go back to that neuro complex brain and specifically, I mean, a DHD. I'm not, I don't want to, I don't want to lump, you know, all the different experiences together. You know, the, the possibility of starting an idea that you then can't land because you have literally forgotten the lead of your own thesis.

So the opportunity. Where I am now, A, have my notes, but B, say, you know what? Oh, let me back up for a moment. I need to start over. That didn't, I was headed somewhere. Yeah, I was headed [00:30:00] somewhere. Because yes, that might jeopardize trust, but I think it's a different version than, I literally don't know what that moment when we all realize that person doesn't know what they're saying anymore, and I'm this word salad,

Julie Harris Oliver: they've lost the plot.

Well, I think the vulnerability of admitting

it goes a long way. A and also the added pressure of everyone looking at you, expecting you to have the answer is the added pressure of, oh God, I gotta make it sound like. I do have the answer here. The point I took away from that was it's much more powerful as a leader to stop and say, what do you think?

Hmm. Or, let's figure it out together. Or I'm gonna come back tomorrow with the answer to that question.

Karen Jones: Yes,

for sure. And modeling that, as you said, modeling that vulnerability. Which, not to introduce a whole other topic here, but you know, we know, um, is a contributor to creating psychological safety with a team. Is that ability to say, yeah, I don't know, or I got [00:31:00] this wrong, or, um, certainly, you know, what do you think we haven't heard from, um, you know.

You know, uh, Julie, I see you, you know, you, you haven't, is there anything that you wanna share, you know, making space for, for someone who, you know, might need more, uh, of an invitation to join a conversation. But yes, emphatically that piece of modeling. The vulnerability, but this reminds me of some, so many years ago I was participating in a women's leadership development program, and part of the prep work for it is we had to interview a senior leader and ask them about leadership practices that they felt were valuable.

And so I interviewed someone who, at the time. Was, uh, I don't remember what his title was, but he was a senior, senior, probably executive vice president of a major, major area of responsibility. And I asked him about, you know, what was something that he thought was really important as a leader, and he said, [00:32:00] confident, vulnerability.

Um, the ability in a room to say what you don't know. He then, and I always remember this, he said. He said, but I'm also saying that knowing that I'm a white man and for me, and again, this is his voice for me to tap into that might have a different, a very different experience than it might for someone who is who know any number of other, um, things other than that.

And I so appreciated a, what he put forth. Because I think on at some point I probably earmarked that, like I put a pin in that as a, as kind of a goal. Like I wanna know what that is to experience confident vulnerability. 'cause it just seems like a beautiful non-sequitur a bit.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, without having the fear of losing credibility.

Yeah.

Just by virtue of who you are.

Karen Jones: Yeah. And this was [00:33:00] years ago. You know, it's also very much the hallmark of, you know, again, the psychological safety now, which I've alluded to. But and that, yeah, and that work would've predated this conversation. So, I don't know. So maybe he was reading tuned into, uh, Amy Edmondson early on.

But I think some part of me, again, like I said, earmarked that as a goal, but I also appreciated how he in that moment modeled that awareness of, his own, his own privilege. And in doing so, created a path for me. It, it gave me a glimmer of something that I thought, ah, okay, that is both modeling awareness, um,

creating safety in the conversation. And, Yeah, I, I know that's a little bit of an aside, but just, I, I just always reflect on that conversation.

Julie Harris Oliver: Well, and I would add, showing a little vulnerability, which leads to authenticity without trauma dumping or giving you too much information or anything that was too personal.

It was still a vulnerable, authentic moment.

Karen Jones: Yeah. [00:34:00] And he didn't need to, he didn't need to testify to it. Like, it just, it just was an offering and. Going back to this original idea of the authenticity wobble there's still times that I think that a version of me is coming across and then I get feedback that.

It reflects that it was something, or that it was received differently and so I'm very aware of how this shows up and that there may continue to be dissonance in. My intention and how it's being received.

And, uh, recently I was with a, I was at a workshop and a group of, you know, people that I had just met, and at the end of it, a couple of the women, they said, oh, it was so great getting to know you. It was such a, it was just such a it's just such a surprise. You were just such a surprise. And Yeah.

And I went, yeah, that was, yeah. What exactly. Yeah. Hello.

Julie Harris Oliver: What were you expecting?

Karen Jones: I don't know. And I mean, you know, I don't wanna [00:35:00] unpack I can't unpack fully what they meant by that, but instantly where I went was, Ooh, that sounds like something in the way that I was presenting myself, which again. It was received by them through the lens of, whatever their previous experiences were and what they brought to it.

But how can I, so the opportunity, the question, the invitation for me is how can I, in more spaces, reduce the chance that someone will have an experience of me that is actually different from the intention that I want to have? Or the intention that I have. and that's just the infinite question, the infinite journey and, and the opportunities that continue.

Julie Harris Oliver: Okay. Where can people find you?

Karen Jones: Where can people find me? . You can find me here in my, in my office in Mid-City Los Angeles. But, uh, my website, the jones code.com.

Also on LinkedIn where I post a fair [00:36:00] amount about things that come up. And I have recently launched a substack and it is not exactly. It's not from my coach's voice, it is from my authentically Karen voice. And what it's called is, so what if it's awkward? And that is my mission to, bring that little care, that little awkward Karen front and center.

And, and give her some, um, time in the, in the spotlight so that she can feel, I don't know. So she can feel like she belongs. Maybe.

Julie Harris Oliver: I'm gonna go follow that right now.

Karen Jones: Yeah. Just beginning, but I'm putting it out there.

Julie Harris Oliver: Karen, thank you so much for doing this. This was so fun to talk to you.

Karen Jones: Yeah. Thank you for this opportunity.

Julie Harris Oliver: You've been listening to Deep Work Out Loud. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. I'd like to thank Karen Jones for being on the podcast and sharing her story. You can reach her at the Jones Code and LinkedIn and her Substack, and if any of this resonates with you, please subscribe and leave review in all the podcast places.[00:37:00]

If you'd like to work with me, you can find me julieharrisoliver.com and let me leave you with this. Where in your life or in your work. Do you have opportunities to show up as a bit more authentic and what could you try? Thanks for listening. See you next time.