EP 10 Forest Therapy and Nervous System Regulation with Laura London | Deep Work out Loud
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Julie Harris Oliver: Welcome to Deep Work Out Loud, the thinking that fuels our life, our work, and our leadership. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. This is the podcast where I sit with another professional coach and we do some work around a single concept, something we're thinking about, something we love, something we're obsessed about, something we're just mulling over.
And if we're really lucky while we're talking about it, we might demonstrate what it might be to sit with a coach and think and work with a coach. But we'll see how this goes. It's still an experiment, and with any luck, you'll leave with something that you can use in your life or your work, or both. So today I'm here with Laura London.
Laura's a leadership strategist with decades of experience facilitating individual and organizational transformation. She's the founder and CEO of Calocedrus Partners, a nature inspired leadership consulting and coaching firm. A former McKinsey and company leader. She brings rigor, heart, and clarity to every engagement.
Raised in New York and now rooted in California. She blends directness with warmth to help ambitious [00:01:00] companies and leaders reimagine leadership in the age of ai, working in person virtually and in nature at her private retreat property, Cedar Camp & Sanctuary. Welcome,
Laura London: Thank Julie. So good to be here with you.
Julie Harris Oliver: Before we dig in, what was your journey to becoming a coach?
Laura London: Oh yeah. Thanks for asking that question. So I have always been fascinated by change, human development, and the world of work. And I can remember being a kid, I started working very early. I think you get your working papers at like 14 or something. And I remember looking around and thinking, these adults spend so much time at work, how cool would that be if I can make it a little bit better? And that's really,
Julie Harris Oliver: At 14, you are thinking this.
Laura London: because I started working and I just looked around and everyone seemed so stressed. And I just remember thinking, you people spend so much [00:02:00] time at work, why isn't it better? And that was, that's really been the theme of my career. So I went to the School of Industrial Labor Relations.
I kind of always knew that I wanted to focus on the world of work, and so my journey eventually led me to, as you said, McKinsey. And I was part of the people and organizational performance practice. And that was really a treat because I got to work in all the different strategic people related areas, but it was McKinsey, of course.
So it had measurements and very clear outcomes and very tight work plans and all the things that, make performance thrive. And then I got an opportunity because I, when I was looking around at the work we were doing, it was great work. And I started to really see that no matter what we did, if the leaders weren't modeling it, if the teams weren't sharing it, and if the systems weren't reinforcing it. Nothing worked. [00:03:00] And so we would do these amazing studies. We would do great work. And then, two months later it was like we were never even there. And so when I got an opportunity to run McKinsey's Leadership Academy, I jumped on it, the oh IP and L responsibility. This is an amazing, I learned more about leadership and it was wonderful.
And at the same time, it made me want to understand the concept of leadership deeper. And so I was able to join the leadership practice and that's when I got introduced to coaching and I immediately fell in love. It was like love at first sight.
Julie Harris Oliver: You are like,
Laura London: And I just remember seeing some of these amazing executive coaches and thinking, who are these magical people? They were so grounded, they were so calming. And that was so different than what I was used to. And I just thought, wow, I wanna be one of them. I wanna learn more about this executive coaching [00:04:00] thing. I wanna be able to incorporate coaching and consulting. And so in 2024, I took the leap and opened my own practice and it's been wonderful to incorporate both coaching and consulting in the leadership area. And so that's been my, my journey and I feel really grateful that I get to, to focus on this and do this every day.
Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah. What a gift and a joy.
Okay. What do you wanna talk about today?
Laura London: So I thought it would be very fun in particular to talk about this topic with you. It's a topic that is near and dear to my heart, and the topic is forest therapy.
Julie Harris Oliver: A topic that is far and away from my heart. I'm gonna play the part of the skeptic in this conversation
Laura London: And I think that's,
Julie Harris Oliver: With an open heart and
Laura London: that's why I think it's such a beautiful conversation to have with you, right? The [00:05:00] richness that we can bring to this
Julie Harris Oliver: Mm-hmm.
Laura London: forest therapy is a practice that I came across over the last couple of years. So it's pretty new in my life and it has made such a huge difference in my life.
And so it's a topic that, I feel called to, to talk about and to share more about. So thank you for the opportunity to talk about it with you. So forest therapy, maybe we start with what it is. 'cause I think it's. It's,
Julie Harris Oliver: wait. Yeah, that was my first question.
Laura London: it is a, it is amazing that in the western world, I still would say nine outta 10 times.
When I ask someone if they are familiar with forest therapy, their answer is, you know, no. It is growing much faster outside of the western world than it really has roots outside of the rest Western world, but it is growing here. So forest therapy is a heavily researched mindfulness practice, and it [00:06:00] is just simply connecting with the natural world.
So connecting with nature, using all five senses. So it is being in nature. It could be any form, it could be a forest, of course, forest therapy, but it can also be a beach. It could be a park, it could just be your backyard. But it is connecting with nature and really tuning into what do I see, what do I hear?
What can I feel? What can I touch, what can I smell, and what can I taste?
And the reason why this is so, so powerful is because as humans, we take information in through our senses, whether we realize it or not, right? We take in information through our senses and we make sense of the world. And if our nervous system perceives that we are not safe. We get a dysregulated nervous [00:07:00] system.
So whether we realize it or not, our ability to regulate how we take in information through our senses is actually the key to having a regulated nervous system. And this is, I think, one of the most important things right now in the age of ai, where we are completely overwhelmed with information and there's this growing tension, right?
We have the better access to information and technology than we've ever had before. And at the same time, research shows we're more disconnected, we have less meaning, we have less belonging than we've ever had before.
Julie Harris Oliver: If I can throw in like also the news cycle, like we are so bombarded and so dysregulated and trying to work and do things when everything around us feels like it's bananas. So this feels so timely and
Laura London: So we have all this noise, [00:08:00] and our first line of defense as humans when we have all this overwhelm is our sense and how we bring in information. So by being able to strengthen our sensory awareness, we are actually calming and regulating our nervous system. So I truly believe that, , forest therapy in particular is one of the best ways we have right now to regulate our nervous systems so that we can show up with more clarity.
With more confidence, we can make better decisions, we could have healthier relationships, and we can act more effectively in the world. And Julie, I'll tell you, this is a topic that is actually quite personal for me.
Julie Harris Oliver: Why.
Laura London: So I grew up in a privileged household in so many ways, and from the outside I probably looked super confident and I was, I went to I did well in school. I had a lot of friends. I went [00:09:00] to a top university. I worked at top companies, but I felt really fragile inside my nervous system was a wreck. And I, I did everything I could throughout my life to try to regulate my nervous system. I didn't have that language. I didn't quite understand that. That's what I was seeking.
Julie Harris Oliver: You were thinking, I just need to feel better. Yeah.
Laura London: But throughout my life, it was a quest to regulate my nervous system and the result of not feeling, confident in my own body, even though outwardly I, I appeared confident and I looked confident, was I didn't really trust myself. I felt fragile, and so I was very susceptible to whatever system I was working in. And so McKinsey, for me was actually the perfect place because it, there is such a clear way they train you in such a clear way of being and acting, right? There's a leadership model and I thought, this is great. This is how I wanna show [00:10:00] up. And so
Julie Harris Oliver: I have rules. I can do
Laura London: I took on the way they wanted me to lead and I was highly effective, but I wasn't excellent. And I knew inside my heart that I wasn't showing up authentically every day. And when I first started to experience forest therapy, I was with you. When I first experienced it, it was like for the first time, I could feel my body relax and I could feel my, my heart open.
And I felt creative again. It was like an immediate reset for me, and I didn't understand why, and I knew I wanted to explore it and get certified in it because I was curious what, what is happening? Why do I feel so much relief and so much joy? And it actually really for me, clicked not too long ago when my son was diagnosed with something called sensory [00:11:00] processing disorder.
So SPD. SPD is actually quite common, but it goes very largely diagnosed. Most people will never know that they have SPD, and what I learned through having to learn strategies to help my son is if we can't regulate our nervous system and we can't regulate how we take in information through our senses, we can't feel safe. The world feels like a dangerous place, and we very easily get either overstimulated or understimulated, right? We're very quickly bored or we're very quickly reactive. That is all a function of our nervous system and what looks like a challenging behavior in a child or even an adult is usually the sign of a dysregulated nervous system. And learning that and having to start to learn ways to help my son strengthen [00:12:00] his nervous system really was an amazing gift for our family because it helped us build empathy. And it also helped us realize the power of simply connecting in the natural world to our senses. And so my favorite thing now to do with my son is go for some type of a nature walk. We could just be going down the block, we could be going for a hike, whatever it is. When we're outside, we will just simply say, let's look around. What do we see? And what started as challenging with him? Naming we would say, let's just name five things we see. That's the easy one. You start with sight.
'cause we see so much. And then we say, okay, let's name four things we can feel at first that felt very challenging for him. And then he started to warm up. We'd be do it together. Okay. Mommy feels the sunlight. Mommy feels the cold air on her [00:13:00] skin, And then he said, oh, okay. You know, I'm gonna get into this.
So he said, I can feel the tree. I feel the tree. I said, or he would pick up a rock. I feel the, I feel the rock touch it, right? I feel the smoothness of the grass, right? So he starts to get into it. Okay, so now let's name three things that we can smell. Another one that, at first was really hard. It's like, I don't smell anything.
Mama. Okay. Well, let's go closer to the tree. What do we smell, right? Oh, I can smell the tree, right? And so just tuning in and then you, okay. Let's name two things we can hear. I can hear birds. I can hear birds, right? Oh, I hear it down there. that? That I hear? And then we get to taste. And taste is always a funny one, right?
Because it's like, what can I taste? But if you really start to tune in, you know, maybe you can taste the cold air or maybe you can taste the pine.
, I think what is, [00:14:00] so I interesting about the practice of forest therapy is how simple it really is and how accessible it really is. And I think at first it's almost like that's it, so you just, I just have to be out in some form of nature connecting with my senses like that, that can't be it.
Right?
Julie Harris Oliver: Like outside, when we used to just roam wild in the streets and everybody seemed a bit more grounded
Laura London: Right. And that's why the beauty of how much research is behind this form of therapy is why it's so compelling and why it's growing so fast, right? Health and wellness experts are estimating it's about 30 to 40 years behind yoga as a practice
Because of its accessibility for everyone. And like yoga, right?
Yoga is something that you can practice by yourself. It's also something you can [00:15:00] practice in a group. And so forest therapy is the overall term for just simply connecting with nature, using your senses. There's also Shin Rin Yoku, which is the Japanese practice of forest bathing, and so forest bathing. I think in some ways maybe has started catching on some, it seems like people are maybe hearing about this.
, There's been a lot of news lately, , around the benefits of forest bathing and forest bathing is just simply going through a guided walk with a certified forest therapy guide. So that is what, that is the certification that I went through and we actually learned the Japanese practice of forest bathing and just like yoga,
Julie Harris Oliver: That sounds like a bigger deal.
Laura London: it's, it's like going to a yoga class, right?
You go to a yoga class to what? To maybe be in community [00:16:00] to learn the moves, to be with somebody, to look at your form to make sure you're doing it right. It's the same idea, , with the practice of forest bathing. And so when you go on a guided walk. Every walk, just like every yoga class is gonna feel different because the guide is gonna bring their own, , knowledge to it, right?
Their own presence to it, their own way of doing it. But it always follows a certain flow. And it, there are some core principles in it, such as move slower, mindful walking, mindful movement. Use nature as the guide, not in the background. And so, Julie, , directly answer, your point there, we grow up playing in nature.
We're used to being in nature, but if we're really honest. Nature is in the background, [00:17:00] right? So I live in Tahoe and before I really started learning about forest therapy, I thought, I'm always in nature. I'm doing forest therapy, but I wasn't because it's a small but very meaningful difference when you're moving through nature and it's the background versus when you are focused on being with nature, right?
So when we practice forest therapy, we are with nature, right? We are tuning in to nature rather than just moving through it as the background. And that small difference is actually the big difference. And that's where it becomes hard for people. So even though it sounds so simple. The interesting part is for those of us that move really fast through life, slowing down is actually one of the hardest things we can do. And having to, , I can't see it. I three things [00:18:00] that I, you know, three things that I smell, I don't smell anything. I don't smell it.
Julie Harris Oliver: Do you want me to sit outside with nothing in my ears and not looking at anything and sit there what you want me to do? What that like it, that at first brush, that sounds like agony. That's gonna be hard.
Laura London: And so it's the, it's that simplicity that is so beautiful about the practice and also what makes it so powerful.
Julie Harris Oliver: okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna play the part of the skeptic in this conversation, but I'm very open to hear what you have to say about it.
Laura London: The skeptic. How are you gonna be the skeptic?
Julie Harris Oliver: well, I can feel already, I'm a little bit like, okay. My, my experience in nature and I grew up in Seattle, in Washington state where we were surrounded and everyone was going kayaking and skiing and hiking and all these things. It was never quite my jam. , But then also when I have had experiences.
Going out in nature, hiking, whatever [00:19:00] my experience has been, nature will try to kill you, , at every turn. And it doesn't care. And also in the time I was growing up, there were a lot of serial killers in the woods in, , Washington and Oregon. So I'm like, well, that's where the serial killers live.
And if you go out there, if the serial killer doesn't get you, nature itself will try to kill you. So, , it's interesting, like we went on this, , I guess you call it forest bathing walk together when you had this, , really opening experience and I was really grumpy about the whole thing because I had just had this experience where nature tried to kill me.
Laura London: So,
Julie Harris Oliver: So my first thought is, oh, I don't trust it. And that seems scary.
Laura London: and the statement of nature will try to kill you. That is a quite a big juicy one. So can you say a little bit more about that?
Julie Harris Oliver: Maybe it's more fair to nature to say, , it will allow you to die and not try to save [00:20:00] you.
For example, I had this, , experience a couple years ago where I was taking a walk on a beach with my husband, and then it, it was a pebbly beach, and then the rocks got a little bigger, and then the rocks got huge and they were boulders and we were bouldering, and the tide was coming in, and I just took one wrong step on a rock.
My foot slipped out from underneath me. I was on my face, my wrist was broken. , And it wasn't like I stumbled. I took a step and I was down and the tide was coming in. There was no more beach. There was no way out. And if we didn't have modern technology. I was thinking, I, am I gonna have to be air vac'd outta here?
How are we going to get, and there was no like, oh, we'll be fine. Nature will take care of us. Like I really had the thought that if left to nature, we would've been in a lot of trouble in that moment. 'cause there, there wasn't a way out until a man showed up and showed us how to climb up the cliff to get out,
Laura London: Yeah. [00:21:00] So, and I can feel it in my body as you're, I could feel my nervous system speeding up as you repeat that. Can you still feel that experience in your body as you retell it?
Julie Harris Oliver: Oh yeah. As I retell it, like it's vibrating in my chest oh, that was,
Laura London: Yeah.
Julie Harris Oliver: yeah. I need to get back to safety.
Laura London: Yeah. And as, as right from studying human development in going through a coaching program, when we have really hard experiences like that, our body and our brain does the the beautiful thing to help us get through it, of have telling us a simple story. All right, so what is that simple story that you now hold when you think about that experience?
Julie Harris Oliver: Oh, the super simple is what I led with. Nature will try to kill you.
Laura London: And now that you've had a little bit of distance from the experience, right? It didn't kill you, [00:22:00] you made it through.
What is the benefit to you in keeping that story?
Julie Harris Oliver: Well, there's a question. I wanna say that I think it keeps me safe in some way ' cause I'm, it keeps me out of having to do things. Like my husband vowed to me at our wedding. He would never ask me to sleep in a tent. And so
It reinforces that. Don't ask me to go camping. Don't ask me to go skiing. I'm not gonna go,
Laura London: So,
Julie Harris Oliver: 'cause I have this story about it.
I,
Laura London: and it, and so it protects, it is a story that comes for good reason. You had a really hard experience in nature, and it's there to protect you.
Julie Harris Oliver: mm-hmm.
Laura London: Thank you, body.
Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah.
Laura London: How could it also be limiting you?
Julie Harris Oliver: Well I think the way that I've conflated it, 'cause you're not suggesting I go climb a cliff and do rock climbing. I think you're suggesting much smaller [00:23:00] interactions that could happen in my city backyard.
Laura London: So how could this be this story, which came for very good reason? How could it also now when you are safe, be limiting you in your own evolution as a human?
Julie Harris Oliver: Well, I think it, it cuts off the, , the benefits and the, I don't know if magnanimous is the right word, but that's the word that's coming to mind. And the, , I feel very limited in my vocabulary right now. Like the giant goodness
Laura London: Yeah. The awe inducing, the research shows that part of it with nature is, it's about, can be awe inducing. It's, there are only so many ways in life that we can get this feeling of awe and nature is one that, that brings it.
Julie Harris Oliver: Yeah,
Laura London: So, can I challenge you here for a moment?
Julie Harris Oliver: sure.
Laura London: How can we reframe what happened so that we both honor the hard experience [00:24:00] that you had, but also create space to be able to benefit from the many proven benefits that nature can bring us mentally, physically, and spiritually.
Julie Harris Oliver: Well, the first thing that comes to mind is, owning my part of it right before that happened, we were having a great time.
And also I was in, , flip flops. That had lost any tread and I was walking on wet rocks. So there's, I think there's something in the preparation and the part that I own.
I can't expect to wear, what I would wear on a paved path in a city park out in the wild.
Laura London: Yeah.
Julie Harris Oliver: So I think that's part of it.
Laura London: And there's an expression that they use in the training of, they say people meet the trail, the way they meet life.
And so in some ways the trail or, going on a walk can be [00:25:00] almost a reflection for us about how we enter life. And so what are you as we're talking about this, what, what's coming to you in terms of what nature actually maybe was trying to. Help you see through that experience?
Julie Harris Oliver: I don't like this suggestion. 'Cause I like to think I am, I prepare for life a little bit better than I prepared for that walk. But it, at, its, at its simplest form, it is important to have proper footwear no matter what you're doing. , Which I rarely, rarely do. Yeah, it's funny, I'm having a really defensive reaction. How dare you? I'm gonna have to think about that. What do you think it means?
Laura London: I think that the forest and forest bathing. Has an amazing power to love us unconditionally and make us accountable and make us [00:26:00] reflect on how we live our life. And I think it is a very personal we, we take very personal and transformative messages when we spend time in nature. And it only the only view can know what the stories are that you want to take from your time in nature, and I think I hope that this is encouraging you in some ways to go back into nature, right? With some of these questions. So it's okay if you don't know the answer, but the the notion that nature will kill us is a really powerful statement. And the reason why it lands so hard for me, right? And I totally understand what you're, I get after an experience like that's a valid conclusion. And we are nature, we are right. There is research to show we are [00:27:00] all made of stardust.
We are made of the same thing that nature is made of. And so if we can't feel like we belong in nature, then we have a huge opportunity. There's a huge unlock. And I really wonder what could happen for you if you go into any type of nature now, reminding yourself that you are safe, now that you have the benefit of detachment from the experience, and you've started to do the work to think, okay, what are how is this protecting me and how is this maybe limiting me? I wonder what would happen if you went back into nature with that openness of what are you trying to tell me?
Julie Harris Oliver: I am. Because I've known you for a while and I've been taking your advice on this before we even did this podcast. I have been here's the big thing I've been doing. [00:28:00] It's gonna sound very small. I have a dog and when he needs to go out to pee, typically I have a podcast in my ear. I'm looking at my phone, I'm doing my wordle while the dog is doing whatever, and I'm now making the effort to leave my phone in the house, not have headphones in, and stand there and look at the trees and the lake while the dog is doing his business.
It's little, but it's, I stop. I take a few breaths, I be in it. That's thanks to you, Laura.
Laura London: and how does that feel as you experiment with that within your body? I.
Julie Harris Oliver: It is now such a relief to slow down for a minute. 'Cause I left my computer and all the millions of things I'm doing and to just shut off the literal noise that I was putting in my ears, and to then stop and tune into the birds and the whatever is happening
Laura London: Yeah.
Julie Harris Oliver: is starting to shut down that internal noise.
Laura London: And I think the more we see [00:29:00] nature as a way to reset our nervous system,
Julie Harris Oliver: So.
Laura London: I hope that we will s, we will stop thinking of it as wasted time.
Julie Harris Oliver: Mm-hmm.
Laura London: And even if we just take just the quiet, the slowness, if we reframe that to see it as an opportunity. To strengthen our sensory awareness, you're not doing nothing. I think it will really make a huge difference in our ability to lead in the AI era, right? An age where it's just gonna keep getting faster and more complicated. So how do we take every moment we can to strengthen our ability to show up creative and in relation with one another? And I'm so happy to hear that you're doing this is the work.
I think this is the work of our generation
Julie Harris Oliver: this is the work.
Laura London: and the more that [00:30:00] we can have those honest conversations like we're having about, nature also can be scary. My, I mean my, we live in the mountains. My son, he's a nature kid and he is very afraid of wildlife, right? He is still, he has a, a real fear, that he's gonna get eaten by a mountain lion or a bear, right?
It's, this is, or the wolves.
Julie Harris Oliver: That seems appropriate if they're there.
Laura London: And so, and what we know about courage is, right? Courage is so important, and it's about taking a risk in life, right? So if we let his story we have this opportunity now while he's young, to help him and not lose his sense of I need to stay safe. We want that, but also to help him take calculated risk for himself, right? If you hear a wild animal. Nor we, you should re, react, right? But the [00:31:00] fear of a, having the fear of nature stop you from getting out and doing things that you love, right? That is your nervous system taking over, right? So there's this combination between the experiences we have, the stories we tell ourselves, and our nervous system's ability to digest it.
And we're, we're learning more and more about these connections, but I think it's really fascinating how simple practice like forest therapy can help us show up more resilient in all areas of our life.
Julie Harris Oliver: Can you tell me what has changed in your life since you started doing this?
Laura London: My nervous system has become so much more resilient. My ability to show up creative rather than reactive has strengthened so quickly. And it was a, I had to move really slow at first to start to get faster. When I first [00:32:00] started, just trying to be with nature and just trying to just sit in it, it was really hard for me. I would feel almost like I was going to have an anxiety attack. I would be panicking. And so I have put a lot of thought into different ways that we can incorporate. This nervous system reset into our lives. And that's the way that I look at it and the implications that I think this has on leadership, and especially leadership right now in the age of ai.
I think it's so important that leaders check in, right? How able am I to regulate my nervous system to make hard decisions, to have the hard conversations, to be in community with others, discussing hard things, right? Because those are the important things right now, right? When the machines can automate [00:33:00] and take over all those things that we just do on autopilot, right?
It becomes, what becomes so important is our humanity, our ability to create calm and clarity. And those are the things for me that have really strengthened. These were things that I knew in my mind are important. And I had a bit of a disconnect. And so this became a really important tool to help me unlock my creativity and my calm. one of the things that I have done in preparation for speaking with you is, I've come up with a list of simple ways that people can start to incorporate forest therapy into how they lead. Because I think that there are so many ways when we start to open our minds to how do I show up in the workplace with presence, and clear and a little bit more clarity and.
Julie Harris Oliver: I was I'm listening to [00:34:00] John Amaeche's new book called It's Not Magic. Are you familiar with him? And he is talking about, in this age, the most important thing a leader can do is walk in, be calm, have a regulated nervous system, because walking in like that, as the leader, taking a deep breath. Grounding allows everyone in the room to relax and ground.
You have so much influence over the room and over everyone you're leading. If you can just do that piece, which sounds so simple, but actually takes work and takes practice. .
Laura London: Emotions are so contagious. We feel it.
Julie Harris Oliver: Mm-hmm.
Laura London: And. And I didn't have words for it. But that my, that was my experience working with so many leaders in these, fortune 500 companies who made it all the way up to the top. And then I would be in a room with them and I would start to feel really dysregulated.
And so had
Julie Harris Oliver: Because even if they're faking it, you can't fake it that [00:35:00] hard.
Laura London: y feeling that kind of dysregulation so often and then feeling how confident and creative and how different I felt when I was in the room with leaders who were regulated, who were in a state of creativity was really palpable. And so, again, this is why, for forest therapy for me, and learning about sensory processing disorder, it was like, almost like a light bulb went off, right?
Of, wow, this is so simple and so accessible and s and so what our world needs.
Julie Harris Oliver: Laura, where can people find you?
Laura London: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me and for having this conversation, Julie, and for being open about, the a, a really hard experience that you had. That I think everyone can learn from. So people can find me by going to my website. It is just Calocedrus.com. So Calocedris is the scientific name for the incense cedar, which flourish at our retreat property in the Sierra [00:36:00] Nevada Mountains. So it's just C-A-L-O-C-E-D-R-U s.com. You can also find me on LinkedIn. I am just Laura London CEO of Calocedrus Partners.
Or if you can't remember any of those and you just want an easy cheat, you can go to big love leadership.com and that will bring you to my website and my philosophy on leadership.
Julie Harris Oliver: Okay, Laura, thank you so much.
Laura London: Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker: this has been deep work out loud. I'm Julie Harris Oliver. I'd like to thank Laura London for joining the podcast. If any of this resonates with you, please subscribe, leave, review in all the podcast places, share it with your friends. If you'd like to work with me, you can find me at julieharrisoliver.com and let me leave you with this invitation:
What might it look like for you to spend some time in nature? Just try one thing. Do the thing where you walk outside and you count 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, [00:37:00] using all your senses. Try some things, report back. Thanks for listening. See you next time.